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Post by emperor on Jan 24, 2009 15:22:47 GMT
In response to the whole "Jason only wants this to generate money"...
I'll say this once. Feel free to repost it wherever you like. I am NOT in this to make money. Over the last 10 years, I think I've perfectly demonstrated this. I've sunk tens of thousands of dollars into this site over the years. The banner ads on DM are a means of breaking even. In recent years, we've done well enough on our banner campaigns where there has been a reasonable net profit. Those funds go back to DM first and foremost. Always.
In no way shape or form am I trying to get the Band to come back to DM so that I can use them for extra cash. If anybody believes them, then I challenge them to email me directly at Jason@dragonmount.com and ask about it. I have no idea what kind of impact on banner ad revenue the Band returning to DM would have. But maybe they should also consider that whatever revenue they do add will end up going to things like server and connection improvements that they are so concerned about.
On that note, regarding server speed and stability: we can EASILY handle their traffic today. But if it helps anybody sleep at night, DM 8.0 will be using two server, not just one, and everything will be backed up on a nightly basis.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 24, 2009 15:31:52 GMT
I'm not saying he's trying to get rich off of us, just that the revenue would increase.
If that is not his primary motivation, what is? He, or any of his spokesmen, has not been able to give one really good reason why we should do this other than "because I say so and I'm the boss."
I've heard "to make DM more professional." When I first joined the band, I thought quite the contrary about these boards... I thought they made DM look great to have some offsite boards like these. They are part of what kept me here, both at the Band AND at DM. Despite that, at a glance, these boards aren't seen, so they don't affect first-impressions of DM.
I've heard "because there are too many sets of forums to visit." If you don't like it, fine. Join another org. Otherwise, bookmark the site, and it will even be easier than going to DM since it is faster and more reliable here. (these boards have gone down for one 24 hours period in the past 4 years. Pretty darn good record in comparison.)
I've heard "because I say so." *yawn* really?
I'm still waiting for an answer that doesn't reek of power-flexing with added excuses. My money guess only came since there is no other reasonable explanation, and seeing as how I wanted to give Jason the benefit of the doubt, I thought of a logical reason instead of assuming he is unreasonable.
Was that response from him a direct response to what was said in this thread? If so, why didn't he come post it in person? If he cares about this issue so much, he should be here in person.
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Post by emperor on Jan 24, 2009 15:41:28 GMT
Empy here:
Email Jason and ask him. I can't speak for him. I will continue to be a go between which is better than nothing. If you don't believe him, take him up on his challenge.
Here is my basic response. You are an org of DM, you belong on DM with the rest of the orgs. You belong as part of the DM community on the DM site. If you are unsatisfied with DM, don't want to visit it, can't visit it, hate the Admins, and/or want your own boards, then you are welcome to become a new site. Throwing it back at you, if you are so dissatisfied with DM, how can you say you are a part of DM.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 24, 2009 15:49:16 GMT
That is kind of a two-part answer...
1. I do still go out to DM, mainly the kin. I don't post much, but I do lurk and keep up to date with many there that I have developed friendships with.
2. As for the band, the sad truth is that while the Band doesn't need DM, it still is nice to have DM. DM provides a steady stream of recruits that would be a little harder to come by if the band left DM entirely. We would still get them, just not as easily. But that doesn't really answer your question.... why has the Band not left already? Because up until now, we have not been asked to sell our souls for DM. This is the first point in which we have been told point blank to give up all the progress we have made or get out. I don't believe we have any other choice but to leave DM under the current ownership, but I haven't given up in the hopes that Jason might realize that telling us that the earth is flat won't make us believe him and stop believing it is round.
So to summarize... we haven't left because this is the first time Jason has ordered us to destroy the standard of high-quality we have set for this org, so until now, we have not had reason to leave. We enjoy the benefits of DM and would prefer to not see them go, but life in the Band would still go on if forced to make the choice between consolidation or maintaining our integrity.
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Post by Rob Anybody MacDemon on Jan 24, 2009 16:12:13 GMT
Empy here: Throwing it back at you, if you are so dissatisfied with DM, how can you say you are a part of DM. Because, despite all our complaints and the niggles that are part and parcel of posting on DM, most of us still POST regularly at DM. Most of our competitions are based on DM. We are involved in different orgs at DM YOU are the ones saying we are not part of DM if we dont give in to your demands!!! No matter the cost to the Band that Corki, and the rest over the years have dedicated countless days of time to making this Org as successfull as it is now!
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Post by 12thr on Jan 24, 2009 18:08:10 GMT
Like they said, we all still go to DM. even me, who can't often get it to work, or get it to change pages when it does. We are in NO WAY sundered from DM. That was a fallacy created to make things sound good. I've seen Jason's reasons, they're ok. but they don't really make sense, and they don't fit the reality of the situation, and that makes this whole plan wrong. Not wrong to want a whole, stable, and actual community(ie actually BEING together), but wrong as in, We already ARE being together as a community, and wrong in the reasons presented because of that, and oft' handled in the worst ways(or perhaps not worst and merely horrendous). We still have friends at DM, that's why we haven't left as well. We aren't the danged cloistered order of idiotic cavemen that we've made out to be(and I've seen corki take hits for us too, not from staff, but from other members who some staff have apparently blabbed to... and of course included only their pointless opinions rather than the truth of the whole situation). Unlike Horn however, I harbor no hopes that Jason will indeed listen to us, nor even bother to understand that we don't fit the bill he has presented us with. Hence I likened him to being King Arthur for us if he WOULD do that... although I'd give that crown to Corki just for trying. After all, Jason started this... literally... BS, he should feel duty bound to fix it anyways. No great honor or chivalry there. Was it Chaung Tsu who said "If a superior man makes a mistake, he hastens immediatly to correct it"? It was him, Confucius, or the Philosopher who "created" the Tao, and was later turned into a diety for his people even though that isn't what he would have wanted. Anyways, the Philosophy is the same. but I don't see it happening. Personally, DM seems more and more like a diseased parasite... (no offence to those who still like it, give it 6 years like I have, its always better in the beginning... although I think it USED to actually BE better.) DM has been falling down a hole, one that some members like to keep digging. Which is why if indeed as I expect, that we get no "pardon" from Jason, and get to stay as we are, that I'm all for a Solo performance. It sure as hell wont be easy, and it may not be handy dandy fun for a while, but neither is posting at a cesspool And yeah, even I'm sorry I feel that way. I didn't hang around for 6 years, and do even the smallest things just to turn around and say "f*ck it". But the DM SYSTEM doesn't seem to work anymore... and maybe with people like Empy in charge, it'll get better... but then there are always other rots that don't move out *shrugs* Like I said, short of Jason making exceptions... I don't see the band, let alone myself coming to much good at DM. Sure, we get members. wooo. Members who learn Horn's Cliques (and he is right btw), members who don't know that DM used to be a more relaxed, and actually FUN place to be, members who only learn the new, more than slightly idiotic rules, and members who sit around and do nothing, which is probably what started all this. Attention and focus misdirected, don't even fix symptoms, let alone the "problems" that Jason sees. As you can see, I could go on forever over how dumb the premise of this operation is, and how "unfair" it is. And I could even point out where some of the actual problems may be... but that wouldn't help us here, and now. (Note: Empy and Kiv, again, not really even talking to you... Its great that you're here and trying, but there isn't much you can do for me... not unless you tried to forcefully make members/mod/admins/Staff/Jason act like intelligent, human beings, and treat others as such... but if you could and did, I'd have to cry out at much the same stuff as I'm doing now ;D And last, yeah, these are my worthless opinions. Just as all of our opinions are truly worthless, no matter what they are ;D But we're here to decide, and my worthless opinion is that DM itself is worthless. as much as I'd like to hang around with the people I've met there, and enjoy any fruits of my 6 years there that there might be... Those friends will talk to me in otherways, once I let them know, because they ARE friends.)
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Post by M-G Corki on Jan 24, 2009 19:40:17 GMT
Just informing you that I am putting a post together at the moment in Word (just in case I lose it! lol!). Expect that up when I get back home from Northie's.
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Post by M-G Corki on Jan 25, 2009 0:04:16 GMT
Now, there has been a reason why I have not posted since the original post (and to clarify something) - to show Empy the resentment/anger/frustration that exists in the Band over moving back to DM. And a lot stems to how we were treated in the past. I am here just to answer any questions you may along the way. We are not going to change this course of action. We are willing to compromise and work with you if you decide to bring your Org back to DM. I also understand you have unique issues as an org and will work to champion them if they are possible. You see, this was the problem the last time over the move. A decision was made without discussing it beforehand. It just breeds anger and resentment. And in a way, that is summed up by Katiora (post 33). The only negotiable options appear once we sign up to a move. And now, in answer to 12th's question about how I would play things if we went our seperate ways. It is not something I have thought much about in the past. However, there would be greater freedom over topic discussions, so that would be an expansion on music and travel, such as debates, movies - basically anything and everything. I would definitely look into creating a proper website (and a technical team as I know very little in the way of website design and hosting! lol! I could always chat to my godfather as he is in the business), and a way to incorporate the wiki and these boards on it. In a way, it would a Band equivalent of the set up at Tar Valon (but without all the stupid rules). A way of recruiting new members would have to be looked at, as well as a look into overhauling/reworking of the points and rank systems. It is something for me to think on and get back on - above is just a start and a couple of minutes of thought. If this happened, I will guarentee one thing. I'll do my best to make it one of the best dang WoT places on the net. In a way, you could view it as 2 fingers up to DM, the stupidity that happens there and how we have been treated. One thing that has not been answered, as far as I can tell, is about the clean slate start. I am assuming it will be, and just want clarification. I don't want to go down this route again, especially after the joke and disaster of last time (which poured additional fuel to my dislike to some of the admins/Jason after the handling of the last DM board switch/moving offboard sites back), but is there the possibility to convert these boards to the new system? I have heard it isn't possible but that was said with the move to SMF - until I found a conversion. On a side note, I've never clicked one of the adds on DM at all. And the fact that most Banders visit DM anyway, I can't actually see much of an increase in revenue. *shrugs* I am going to be honest, but I think DM will lose out in the long run if you try and force this move on us. We are on the largest ORGs there, our post count is in the top 5 of boards, there seems to be a steady increase in posting on the Band's boards at DM (which I am pleased about so keep it up Banders! . Most of our main activities are held there for the rest of DM to see, like Tune or No Tune, It's A Knock Out, Battle of the Bands. DM really isn't losing out, in my eyes. All that is missing is some 217,000+ posts, which in the long run will probably slow the site down. The majority of posts here are spammy, which was why these boards were first created - does DM really want that? And off boards didn't seem a problem until Jason's decree in 2006 2007 - it came out of the blue for those that had no idea it was temporary - and the way it was handled (which appears to be repeating itself again - well, history has a nasty habit of doing that). And if we do leave, I suspect I will resign as ORG Leader at DM. But expect me to reapply for the vacant position - I look forward to the challenge of actually playing by the red tape. ;D But sadly, it won't be the Band of the Red Hand that won the best ORG at the Empy Awards - it will just be a shadow because of the stupidity and red tape of the owner. And the way DM is run reminds me of my beloved football/soccer team, Southampton FC, who are in a total mess. We have a joke of a chairman, and a few idiots on the board. I won't name names, but you could work out who is who. I do my best to fight things, but it is to little or no avail, for I am but a lonely ORG Leader. And a final point - I think Jason would have more respect if he were a lot more active (that would show he cared, something that doesn't seem to exist) and actually showed up to this discussion. I have to say I was thoroughly disappointed last time as I had to make his account. In a way, that shows how much he really did care. If he is so busy as he says he is, why does he still run this place? Surely it would be better to pass it on to someone who has the time and energy to put into the site? Anyway, I'll have another read of what I wrote in the morning and see if I have anything to add to it.
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Post by emperor on Jan 25, 2009 0:07:24 GMT
I want you guys to know your opinions are not worthless. Every idea you guys have should be explored. At the very least your leadership at DM should be around to listen and respond to your requests.
-Empy
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Post by 12thr on Jan 25, 2009 0:51:31 GMT
Its not even just incidents related to this stuff though... There's crap rising to the top everywhere. And while I'm glad some staff there bother to think about opinions given, there are others who ask (because other staff feel we should be asked after we make a big enough deal about it to actually get people to listen) And then we tell our ideas, opinions, and we're merely told why it wont work... ever. at all. period. Its funny that the person telling me this was on several occasions the person who had caused the problem But to clarify, I was speaking philisophically about our opinions... everyone has one, and everyone's is different, and ultimately, our opinions mean diddly ;D Which can correlate to what some DM staff have done... which is just to say we're wrong, and they (personally, not as a Staff) are correct.
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Post by manriva on Jan 25, 2009 1:27:47 GMT
I left home Friday morning and there wasn't a whole page of this. Now I'm home Saturday night and there's FOUR .. I'm not going to try and point for point my contribution. Will just be a little general... Well,, kind of a medium general.. 6 feet and almost 200 lbs. is sort of medium I'd wager to say.
We at the Band consider ourselves part of DM and always have. Some DM'ers first and others DM'ers second, but always part of DM. DM though has not always, to some of us, considered The Band that way. Some former Band members who now reside only at DM in other Org's spread the opinion, or so the tale is, that we had become a "rogue" Org. That we didn't want anything to do with DM. I had not known anyone who ever believed that entirely. Until, this issue of everything we do goes to DM with no option other than going independent came up. The discussion thread at DM, with "my way or the highway" demands/ultimatums made by Kathana and Matalina both if I recall; pretty much solidified some of the mistrust and ill feelings we have here in this thread... I joined in the hotheaded posts then too so I have some culpability there as well.
I saw the phrase "can't we co-exist" mentioned at one point. Our connotations it appears are different. What DJ means is why can't we exist as is... Empy replies that we can co-exist ....meaning, exist as separate entities... DJ, the answer is we cannot co-exist as is because Jason will not have it. As he said in the last thread we had here on one of his few visits.
Not only will our Org Game have difficult to resolve issues being held at DM (the dice roller being "off site" as it were) but the Hornsounder will have even more Major issues...
I'm not the one to speak intelligently on its workings, organization etc., but there will be many threads required and likely another board entirely. This in order to have it organized in such a fashion as to make the publication of it more easily accomplished by those who do that. TIME is the major issue there. NOW... I can foresee some of the clique at The Illuminators who have wanted to start their own "newsletter" for many months now, screaming bloody murder if any of this is allowed. They have been asked many times to contribute so that the HS reflects more widely DM. All we've gotten from these requests is a big ZILCH. We get articles from Banders who give us articles from other Org's they belong to. From my reading of threads at the Illuminators when I did spend time there, Matalina and some others would like nothing more than for the HS to wither and die on the vine. Which ironically, every other attempt at a DM newsletter has done... The HS has been going great guns with no DM help for two years now at least. It went on before that too as more of a Band centric newsletter. The HS now has an offsite "workshop" to assemble articles, organize and then publish the thing. Will this too be negated and made to be "locked" as it's not a DM site?...
Band Regimental Competition Festivals that are Org Game dependent will NOT function at DM. Not as far as the Festival staff board is concerned. Proboards loads slowly with those pages, as I stated in my first post, being heavily ubbc coded with bullet lists, tables, etc..
I do not want the current BotRH to leave DM. But DM is forcing the issue for no GOOD reason. Jason has not ever given us one (other than, "we want to look professional") that is not specious at best and outright misinformation at worst. Empy (who does not know me from Adam) nor Kivam (whom I respect greatly and consider an ally) can not give us one either outside of what Jason has given to DM staff. So why do we ask Empy or Kiv when we already know what Jason has told us.
We go entirely to DM and salvage what little we can of what has been built over 4 years of hard work... OR
We go independent, take our chances, do what we think best (or Corki, for the most part in reality) and try not to become TarValon.net ... while watching A BotRH shadow try to rise from ashes at DM... listening to sblack (dumbass word censor) snickering behind the hands of persons from some quarters... and believe me, there WILL be those. From some who will join this NEW band.
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Post by Fatman and Ramen on Jan 25, 2009 1:56:37 GMT
*a swarmy gleeman and his rancid smelling mule calmy enter the thread, pulling a few barrels of MG Brew.......*
Oh, don't minde us, Gov'nar.....we just thought ya'll wish to wet ya whistle while yer' jabberin ya jaws.
This all reminds me of my uncle Mat Cauthon......those Aes Sedai kept tryin to toss their voodoo on him to get him to conform and be a good lad, but he had that Foxhead medallion that kept him safe.
Ahh, but look at me. Inactive for months and then suddenly showing up like this? I'm like an old relative who you've never heard from in ages, showing up when I need to borrow your car and some money.
Well, I'll let ya'll get back to your discussion. Cheers!
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Post by manriva on Jan 25, 2009 2:04:44 GMT
Clever Plug there DutchBoy OH... and I think, but I could be way off.. That hittin' those Ads has some to do with how a site gets ranked on google as well as making money... And I do not begrudge Jason that. More Power to im'.. Though I had heard at one time though I do not know where that some was diverted to outside CGI projects or the like. Still makes not a hill of beans to me. So long as his site runs as advertised, which is debatable, but as Kiv says.. recently (since the recent malfunction) it has seemed responsive Note To Kivam: We were informed in simple fashion towards the end of 07 in a thread we had here, which Jason visited a few times. This is not a democracy by any standard... (I paraphrase) .. but the meaning was crystal..
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Post by Paladin Bridmorgan UC on Jan 25, 2009 2:24:50 GMT
I haven't made any posts yet because I wanted to read what Empy and Kivam had to say to the questions brought forth by everyone. Plus, I knew there were those here who could put things out there a bit better than I could. Manny is right. We have never heard a "real" reason for us to move back. How in any way are we hurting DM by having these offsite boards? It's been said a few times, we're one of the largest Orgs at DM and have one of the largest post counts. We also won best Org in the Empys this time around. So how can we not be part of DM and a very active part of DM to acheive that? With that, I ask again, how are we hurting DM by having these boards? As for the Hornsounder, Manny again is right. There is no way we can do the work we do on DM. We would have to have our offsite workshop to ensure that the quality newspaper we have been putting out stays quality. A lot of hard work has been invested by Band members to make it what it is, and if you ask me, it's top notch. I would not like to see that go down the proverbial toilet. BUT...having said that, I know that nothing we say, ask, cry, rant or pregnant dog about is going to change the fact that we have 1 choice. Move completely to DM or leave. I really wouldn't care if I ever went back to DM. I belong to other Orgs there, but in name only. I'm not active in them and making the move "back" to DM wouldn't change that for me except maybe and that's a big maybe, I'd be more active in the Kin. I think the only thing about DM that is a boon for the Band is that we get new members from there. It's down to swallowing our pride and giving in to what is being asked we are being told we have to do and hoping it all works for the best or we move on and becom our own WoT site. I think my major, if only real concern, with that is trying to get new members. I wouldn't want the Band to become stagnant due to lack of new blood. One other thing I want to say is...people keep saying "move back to DM". We never left.
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Post by manriva on Jan 25, 2009 3:06:46 GMT
No .. WE did not leave... I'll tell you what's at the root of all this.
The White Tower had relatively NO presence at DM for a time in 06 and 07 .. Not the Ajah's at any rate... Nearly everything was done at their offsites. Brid I think you and Tay can back me up here or tell me I'm full of crap... To negate that they had to bring their activity back completely to DM.... I can feel this in my flippin' bones ... If THEY had to do this, then NO ONE could have off sites... That is why we get no rational explanation except that Jason wants it this way.... Dear Elaid...... errrr.. Kathana and Mata ....
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