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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 16:46:13 GMT
Kivam again: 1. Why can't we have two avi's? I know that in many other boards, you can have one or two set by a mod, and one set by yourself. Good question. We'll look into it. Hmmm . . . what about its layout/graphics specifically? Personally, I don't have an issue with either, so its hard for me to respond to this. No, it's really not a BS answer, and there is a logical explanation. Just look at Tay's post above - she's talking about people who never show their faces at DM. Cross pollination - which is what we want, really (hell, I need more people to show up at D&D) is just so much more likely if people are already on the DM boards for their Band stuff than if people are here. Take me, for example - I spend most of my DM time on D&D (what can I say, I like a good political argument), some on the staff board (now that they went and made me an Admin, I kind of have to), and a bit less at the Illuminators (much less lately, for the same reason I haven't been by Myndjack. Work is kicking my @$$). But if I've got a bit of free time, and have checked in there . . . well, every so often I'll swing by Fiddles. Or one of the other Org boards. Or newbies, to welcome people. Because it's easy to do it (just pull up the board name on the drop down list), and I'm already on DM. And I can tell you that when I'm over at JetsInsider, and I'm done talking salary cap, free agency, coaching staff, and draft eligible college players, I don't even think about swinging by Fiddles to see what's up. Because it's not the frame of mind I'm in - it's not the community I'm in, at that moment. And I'll throw that question back to you, Horn, and to Taymist, and to the various other folks here who post on both sites. How likely are you to hop over to a random DM board and say hi if you've finished posting here and have some free time. And how likely are you to do it when you've finished posting on DM? Is it the same likelihood? I'd be willing to bet that it isn't. Yes. Emp's not the only one who respects Corki. And don't underestimate Emp's influence, either. The only folks above either of us (I am for mods what Emp is for Org leaders) in the DM Staff hierarchy are Kathana and Jason - and both generally leave us alone to manage our areas however we want to.
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Post by Paladin Jon the Direwolf on Jan 23, 2009 17:13:33 GMT
Ok. this is the THIRD time I've had to post this and other people have mentioned it and EVERY TIME you just ignore it and fail to answer this question, so, here it is for the THIRD time. You're wanting to answer our questions and make us feel that you all care, then it isn't good when you ignore a question more than one time.
Why can't our two sites co-exist?
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 17:28:44 GMT
Kivam again: Ok. this is the THIRD time I've had to post this and other people have mentioned it and EVERY TIME you just ignore it and fail to answer this question, so, here it is for the THIRD time. You're wanting to answer our questions and make us feel that you all care, then it isn't good when you ignore a question more than one time. Why can't our two sites co-exist?Jon, Sorry, thought I'd answered it. They can coexist. And if the Band decides it doesn't want to move back to DM, the sites will coexist. This Band will just need to stop recruiting at DM, and DM will rebuild it's own band org on DM. But there'll be no rivalry between DM and the Band, and the Band will be treated like any other non-DM WoT site (like TV.net, for instance). No hard feelings, no anger, and - like I said before - every individual Band member will be just as welcome to keep posting on DM as much or as little as they like. But like I said above, there's a real reason we want DM's Band to be on DM's boards - so obviously, we'd prefer that the Band choose to come back to DM's boards and there'd be no need to "coexist" at all. But that's totally up to you guys, and if the sites need to coexist, then that's cool too.
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Post by Lady Katiora on Jan 23, 2009 18:54:22 GMT
So, in other words this isn't really a discussion on what we want... it's a discussion on what you're goint to make us do. We are either going to go back to dm or not be part of dm at all... so basically it's do whatever you say or be "excommunicated"... Ahhh such the DM Admin mindset... Nice to know that we live in a world where the masses have free choice and where the "people in power" listen to their problems... What a joke.. THIS is why i do not frequent DM. Kivam, I would like to say i don't mean this offensively but i'm not sure that would be honest... You're a joke. This isn't the first time that you have bullied people and really every time you do it DM loses valuable members.
Really I do not understand all of this... What is a forum but a place for people to come and chat and talk and discuss things. Without your members you are nothing, so really shouldn't it be the members and not the Admin that make big decisions... I really don't know of any member besides the small admin group that has a problem with the Band boards... The only people that have a problem with it are the people that might make a few more bucks if we move back... So is your reasoning for moving us back truely "making us part of dm again" (which i must say i never knew we weren't) or is it to get a few more bucks?
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Post by Rob Anybody MacDemon on Jan 23, 2009 19:06:41 GMT
I have always avoided posting in this kind of discussion because I feel my views and comments would probably be less than appreciated, especially by admin types. But as this discussion keeps cropping up time and time again, I'm starting to feel left out.
Emperor:
All I can say to ANYONE using this as an excuse (I'm not singling you out for a personal attack, you just happened to be the first one I could quote) is this, and this is something I do all the time...
Bookmark if you use Firefox, Favourites in IE (I hate IE grrr) oh, and multiple tabs? What an invention! Now you can have as many boards open as you want.... At the same time.
I use Bookmarks to navigate all around DM as it is. It really does make things easy... All your favourite pages are but a single click away... Whatever... Site.... They ... Are at.
Emperor... again (Seriously, I'm not picking on you)
Take a look around the Band. Look at who the most regular visitors and posters are. I guarantee that most of them are regular contributors at DM, a lot of those are well respected members of various Orgs. They manage to post here and at DM to no detriment to EITHER party. I really can't believe forcing a move to be based solely at DM will improve DM as a site. But it WILL be the end of the Band as we know and love it. I'm convinced about that.
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 20:35:17 GMT
Kivam again - and Kat, we have to stop meeting like this ;D So, in other words this isn't really a discussion on what we want... it's a discussion on what you're goint to make us do. Absolutely not. Kat, we can't make you (or anyone else) do anything at all. And we wouldn't want to. You guys are going to decide, amongst yourselves what you want to do. And if there's anything we can do to allow you to replicate what you have here on DM, I'll be fighting for it - if only because it'll make it more likely that you (as a group) choose to come fully back to DM. For instance, I can tell you that based on what we saw on this thread we're talking about how to make a Title/Rank/Avatar transition work. The main issue (as its been explained to me) is that setting up too many usergroups across all of the various orgs and divs will cause the boards to run a bit slow. So rather than having usergroups which will automatically add your titles/ranks/band avvys (which I assume is how you have it set up now), we're talking about setting up space in the UserCP to allow people to enter their own ranks/titles/etc., and hosting the Band Rank Avvys in the DM Gallery so they are easy to set up as a DM Avatar (no uploading to photobucket or anything like that). For another, I saw someone mentioned liking the Band board skin better than the DM board skin (personally, I hate black/gray board skins, but that's just me) - I know that we're planning to include multi-skin options in DM 8.0. I'm not a code person, so I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to replicate the Band skin as an option on the planned 8.0, but it's certainly something I'm going to suggest. So yes, it's a discussion, and yes, we're listening. But if you mean "discussing maintaining the status quo as an option" - no, that's not what this is. That's an issue that was decided a long time ago (back before I ever became staff, forget about an Admin), and it's been implemented for all of the Orgs and Divs. A lot of them came back with difficulty - I've heard the RP particularly had problems. So even if looking at the Band in a vacuum would mean that bringing the Band back wasn't the right call (and I don't think that's the case, but even if), exempting the Band from something that applied to every other Org and Div would be a bad idea and generate a lot of resentment from those other Orgs and Divs. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that one way or the other, the status quo is going to change. The Band is either going to become a standalone WoT site, or its going to migrate from Proboards back to DM. But it's totally your call as to which one will happen. Sorry you feel that way. Actually, I've heard some of that resentment I mentioned above from folks in the various other orgs and Divs that did move back - so you're simply wrong when you say "nobody else cares". But aside from that, I doubt many members spend much time thinking about about the needs of DM as a whole or the long term impact of moving orgs/divs back onto DM's boards, so it wouldn't surprise me if not very many folks cared one way or the other. Hell, even the banders talking about this move are looking at it mainly from a "how will this impact the band" and not "how will this impact DM" - a POV that makes perfect sense, and that I'm not criticising, but it just demonstrates my main point: as an Admin, my job is to think about the site as a whole, not just the area of it I tend to play in (which is why I am concerned about this; as a regular member, I wouldn't have cared myself). And that's why some big picture decisions do need to be made by the staff (with, and after considering, member input), and not by member vote. (In fact, having people whose job is to look at the bigger picture is one of the benefits a representative democracy has over a direct democracy). Uh, Kat - you realize I don't get paid to work for DM, right? None of us do - not Emp, not Corki, not Kathana. According to Jason (and I say that not because I disbelieve him, but because I don't have personal knowledge), the revenue DM generates - from ads or otherwise - gets poured back into the site itself (e.g. paying for things like servers, etc. to make the site run better). So no, this isn't "to get a few more bucks". Of course, if you're inclined to believe that unless you get a personal look at DM's balance sheets . . . well, then I can't stop you, and "according to Jason" won't satisfy you. So, like so much else, what you believe on this is entirely your call.
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Post by 12thr on Jan 23, 2009 20:37:47 GMT
Well co-existance and remaining--wait... what was the phrase? Part of DM? So we're part of DM? Why do we have to move then? Because we aren't part of DM? I see... Blind men, saws... you know the drill ;D (and as has been said, none of this is really to Empy of Kiv ;D ) The whole premise of the move is dumb. Its not even a premise, its a bad excuse. Unless there is some hidden reason and 'meaning of life' crap that no one actually knows about, there is no good reason to move back even to a perfect little DM where we could frollic and roll down the hills naked all we wanted. But DM isn't perfect, hell it doesn't even work. You're looking at the one who CAN'T post at DM 9 out of 11 times I try. Yeah, I went through the ropes with Fader and a few others a few different times, and I get a few minutes of a still-not-properly-working-DM-but-a-little-better before we were back to square -1138. (And yeah, i tried from my end from Internet settings, virus protection/firewall, to Internet updates to new internet programs, and I even tried it from 3 different states and 5 different computers). When DM "works", it doesn't. Regular Half-hour waits for a "IE cannot display page" is working great though ;D I want to SEE DM 8 actually work first... but I doubt that'll happen lol I doubt we'll see it first, and I doubt it'll work. That's my worthless non-tech opinion. However, I am rather an expert on DM not working. Go ahead, ask me if it does If it works for you... more power to you. But this Band existing as it does, is ALL that keeps me even TRYING to get to DM. If these people weren't active there, I would NEVER try to go there. I'd have no point. People who are active here, are active at DM too for the vast majority. Those 3 people who aren't... well they're certainly worth all the "consolidation" trouble to get them to post there right? because they made a choice to post here and not there? So its to forcing we go? And I'd have to say it is forcing... ;D Or at least attempting to force them back. The "premise" of the move is poinless, because its wrong. No consolidation is needed, its ALREADY handled, it always was for the Band, I wont try to speak for the other ORGs. All that said, I get that we're past that, staying as part of DM and keeping the boards here is already a lost cause. Why?--the banders ask? because that is the ultimatum. *shrugs* that's the iron law, set in stone, and only the King of DM can remove it... in this case... so showing his chivalry and worthyness to be King! ... I might have mixed up my stories there. But you get the idea. Its jasen's site, blah blah blah, ultimatum. No I'm not trying to make sense, because the topic doesn't ;D It really is a matter of, Move to DM, or don't, and hope for better luck on our own as a site, and maybe look for a partner, or some other way to bring people in. I'm not going to "threaten" to leave if we go to DM, I just will. DM doesn't work, the pettiness that flies around there stinks of people who can no longer stand each other, and it always seems to be getting worse. We've had our problems, but we've gotten over them without getting too danged infatuated with ourselves, and we handled what needed handled. That doesn't seem to happen at DM. The sweet stench of decay and desperate living... That and the boards don't work, and its just not as good... and its rather pointless... and some of the actions and ideas there seem to contradict each other (No, I'm not going to bother verifying these, people who have seen it and feel it will agree and know what I mean, and those who don't have done a good job of avoiding it ) and... well you get it. ;D Someone will be happy to see me go They'll have an actual competition for the Silliest Member Empy Award without me there ;D (Silliest Member... Empy?! ;D Maybe! Good luck if so! ) And the Trickster Award here in the Band might get some new blood too ;D oh, and of course, the Red Arms may let out a little sigh of relief ;D And somone may finally catch up to me for number of Spotfines ;D LOL however, if anyone out does my 10 Spotties in one post record, I'll bang on DM's door until it lets me in loing enough to break ALL of them in one post, then I'll leave I hope you've found this an instructive, and helpful program on "spamming on topic and being completely serious while making wise cracks". If not, them I guarantee no refunds on your time, nor do I take responcibility for any injuries that occured while trying not to read this... in short, you're on your own. You may now stop reading. If you are still reading, stop. If you are still reading, you are crazy. If you are still reading, get a life. If you are STILL reading, reread. If you are yet still reading, Please verify your understaning of the above text. If you... well if you are.... I love you.
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 21:36:42 GMT
Kivam again -
Just letting you all know its about sundown on the east coast, so I won't be checking back til sat. night.
Til then, have fun storming the castle
(and 12 - without even knowing your alt here, I figured you out 2 paragraphs in. The smilies gave you away ;D)
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Post by Rodelle & Muggles on Jan 23, 2009 22:02:12 GMT
Empy you need to realize that we see ourselves as DM members, and yes we are looking out for the welfare of the band. foryour org you would be looking out for its welfare too. if we moved all this information to DM thats an additional 200,000+ posts are you 100% sure that the server can handle it and what we want to accomplish with extra avatr bigger siggies, etc.? whats wrong with us not posting at DM 100% of the time mopst of us post here maybe 1/4 of the time i personally about 70% of the time. whats wrong with it? If you can truly give me a reason why having us here is bad for DM then I will listen.
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Post by 12thr on Jan 23, 2009 22:12:05 GMT
Kivam again - (and 12 - without even knowing your alt here, I figured you out 2 paragraphs in. The smilies gave you away ;D) Thank You ;D
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Post by 12thr on Jan 23, 2009 22:26:13 GMT
Empy you need to realize that we see ourselves as DM members, and yes we are looking out for the welfare of the band. foryour org you would be looking out for its welfare too. if we moved all this information to DM thats an additional 200,000+ posts are you 100% sure that the server can handle it and what we want to accomplish with extra avatr bigger siggies, etc.? whats wrong with us not posting at DM 100% of the time mopst of us post here maybe 1/4 of the time i personally about 70% of the time. whats wrong with it? If you can truly give me a reason why having us here is bad for DM then I will listen. What's "wrong" is Jason says what Jason says and that is pretty much the way things go... like I said, the move is set in stone, we only have one opition besides moving back... Which is partly why I posted. The Mind was made up, that's all there is to it. Its too late to say "not fair" or "coexist and stay with DM"... Empy and Kiv are here to give us our answers, and to be fair, they just can't answer things like "Why can't we co-exist?" ... Its not really their call, not really their decision, they either operate as DM and Jason does/says, or they don't. That's where we are They can only do their best and try to stay and help... or not. That's what WE need to decide. Personally... I'd be asking Corki how we would play it if we decided NOT to go to DM, and see what ideas we can come up with, and if those are ultimately better than going to DM. But if we're going to take advantage ( ) of these Two, Empy and Kiv, we might as well ask questions that they have they some measure of control over the answers too. To be perfectly honest, they'll give their answers to a lot of it, and they'll try their best I'm sure, but they just can't know, and they just can't swing it all if any. It wont be their fault in the least, but that's how I see it happening if we stay. I see little value in staying, and I wont be voting to stay. Don't get me wrong, DM used to be great... I met my fiancee there ;D But its not what it used to be, and its not getting better. Petty squabbles, Jason/Admin/Mod/Member relations and regulations, Orgs, etc. You name it and there's some danged bloddy story popping up about some dirt on some body and others who feel like causing the dirt to spread... Not exactly a "Community" anymore. maybe people just miss RJ too much.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 24, 2009 1:12:02 GMT
Because of the wonderful thing called bookmarks, my liklihood is exactly the same as now.
I used to be super active at DM... I was one of the first Red Sashes at the Kin, I was an Ashaman in the BT, and I have been leadership at the WT (both times a major dissapointment due to the "clique" problem I discussed.). I used to be heavily involved at D&D (probably to my own embarrassment), and I have been involved with the Seanchan and SG for a time.
Why do I bring this up? Because out of ALL those orgs, the Kin is the ONLY one that hasn't made me leave feeling like it was some privileged cliquish club of which I was undeserving. I stopped posting anywhere at DM but the Kin, which I do rarely. Every place but the Band and Kin has given me the same disdain for DM that many others have, and now Jason wants me to move my home there?
If the band consolidated and flooded DM with its content, my interaction with the rest of DM would remain at just a few posts with the Kin. In my few minutes I can squeeze in each day, browsing on a slow broke clique site is the last thing on my to-do list, and the only difference in activity would be less activity in the Band, not more in the rest of DM.
Seriously, take a look at this.... the Band consolidates back to DM. Half its members stop, the org breaks down and dwindles and joins the Tinkers as another org-gone discussion group, if it even survives to do that. OR it does not and stays independent, or possibly joins another site that doesn't adhere to a policy of "If it ain't broke, I'll fix it anyways." DM then makes a new band org.... from scratch... right. As if it would actually do well without us. Sure, you'd get some members from this org, but it would not work. Making a new org at DM is not that simple, because that is what it would be... a brand new org. Either way, this childish ultimatum is a lose-lose situation for EVERY one involved, from Jason down to the newest member of the Band.
There is an episode of House from the first season that reminds me of this.... the guy that donated $100 million to the hospital told House to fire one of his crew for the sole purpose of knowing House would do what he said. A stupid order just because he could be a big bully. (In the end, the hospital board voted the rich guy out because they realized their morals were better than the convenience of the money.)
Yes, the revenue gets poured into the site, but it is still about money.
Exhibit A: Jason has publically asked us to visit the site more often because it generates money.
Exhibit B: Jason has publically asked us to click on the ads before because it generates more money.
Exhibit C: There is no other logical reason than for the money.
I'm not saying he'll get rich on it, just that he wants more money to pay the bills. But, that still leaves money as the driving issue.
The funny thing is that will backfire anyways because the consolidation will result in a drastic cut in activity, or if we choose to maintain our dignity, an even bigger cut in activity.
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Post by Blade on Jan 24, 2009 5:15:38 GMT
I think what we're looking at here is the wrong perspective. Right now they want us to move back and that's set in stone. Okay, we move on from there. Clearly here the rest of the members of DM are reaching out and trying to do everything they can to accomodate the band back into DM's boards and from what I'm seeing it doesn't look like we're trying too hard to get what we want, just criticizing. Now there are flaws to it, granted, but I see this as an opportunity to post what we need over at DM since basically as has already been said, it's been set in stone that somehow the band will be back there. They want us the be that band. Let's do what we can and see how we can keep the heart and soul of the band over there.
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Post by Rodelle & Muggles on Jan 24, 2009 5:38:11 GMT
Blade and lanth your right if its set in stone lets see what corki can come up with, but prepare for the move to DM.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 24, 2009 14:55:56 GMT
I think what we're looking at here is the wrong perspective. Right now they want us to move back and that's set in stone. Okay, we move on from there. Clearly here the rest of the members of DM are reaching out and trying to do everything they can to accomodate the band back into DM's boards and from what I'm seeing it doesn't look like we're trying too hard to get what we want, just criticizing. Now there are flaws to it, granted, but I see this as an opportunity to post what we need over at DM since basically as has already been said, it's been set in stone that somehow the band will be back there. They want us the be that band. Let's do what we can and see how we can keep the heart and soul of the band over there. Let me ask you something.... if someone was ordering you to do something that would have a high potential to ruin something you have worked your butt off for, and their plan was full of gaping holes, wouldn't you point out those holes even if you knew it was pointless? The way I see it there are three options. 1. The best option: A miracle happens and Jason realizes how ridiculous this idea is and recants the ill-fated idea. 2. The second-best option: The band leaves DM and stops this nonsense. 3. The band returns to DM, loses many members, loses much of its activity, and becomes a stagnant org. By pointing out the holes, I increase the chances that the nightmare of #3 doesn't happen.
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