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Post by Rodelle & Muggles on Jan 23, 2009 8:59:35 GMT
Well, I dont like the fact that we are being bullied. I belong to Botrh, and the Black tower. I do most of my posting *almost all, because the Botrh is much more friendly and we have a second board where speed is increased; we have more options, and well i agree if we move all of our information DM would probably crash. Empy no offense, but leave or else; isn't the way to do it. There is a diplomatic approach. LEt us continue our marrey way we continualy post at DM, hell I still do. Just please that email seemed a bit childish to me.
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Post by Sora el Nyn on Jan 23, 2009 12:47:08 GMT
Tay has said pretty much what I wanted to say already, so I won't repeat it all. But I do feel at home here on proboards, I like the layout and the way it runs. I have had a lot of problems with DM being incredibly slow frequently (I timed it once, it took 15 minutes for one page to load up), while I sit here and can post 4 or 5 messages in that time.
As someone else said, why can't the boards co-exist? I am also a member of the Black Tower and they have off-sites too and I've heard nothing about them moving it to DM.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 23, 2009 14:31:16 GMT
speaking of the BT... last I knew they still had boards and half the members weren't bluffing when they said they would leave rather than consolidate... do they still have their own board?
Also, regarding moderator rights...
Every two months, reach regiment gets a new set of mods. Running at DM speed, that would mean that the new set of mods each two months would be delayed by at LEAST a month while we wait on DM staff to finally get around to changing the mods to be current. I'm not basing this off of conjecture... I'm basing it off of experience with trying to get anything admin done at that site.
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 14:40:56 GMT
The Black Tower has already agreed to move their boards a few weeks ago. If Eclipse hasn't let his members know what is up, then you need to take that up with him. He has his own set of problems with a move which we are working through on the tech side.
With the group function down at DM, people are pming me about changing mod rights. Mystica just sent me a PM. I think I fixed her request in a matter of hours. I am super active at DM over the week so taking a month to process your request would not be an issue and sounds like an over exaggeration. Also, with the exception of recently, mod rights on DM have been controlled by Org Staff. This will also be a feature on DM 8.0.
It may seem like we are bullying, but really we are just trying to bring you back to the DM community.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 23, 2009 14:50:20 GMT
It may seem like we are bullying, but really we are just trying to bring you back to the DM community. We are already in the DM community. Between all of the orgs and divs, only three of them have more posts than the Band. Same with the topics. Even with our main activity over here, we are the 4th biggest org/div in terms of activity. My month-long comment was not an exhaderation... it may be inaccurate now-- I haven't been in this org's senior leadership in a while and you were not in your position yet-- but when I needed things, it literally took a month or more. Sorry if it isn't applicible now, just speaking from experience. (actually the creation of one board took several months, not just one.) Also, out of curiosity... why isn't Jason here? He was here for a day or two over a year ago before dissappearing mid-discussion... in my mind, he really needs to be the one trying to moderate this with us. No offense to youintended, but if he is so keen on such a major change for his site, he should be taking enough interest to handle it personally. (and also then you wouldn't be taking all this heat and hard questions that are aimed at him anyways)
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 14:59:06 GMT
I will mention that he should stop by. I will even link him directly to this post.
Not only am I your most active Admin, I am also the one in charge of the Orgs at DM. I have Jason's approval on this course of action.
I am here just to answer any questions you may along the way. We are not going to change this course of action. We are willing to compromise and work with you if you decide to bring your Org back to DM. I also understand you have unique issues as an org and will work to champion them if they are possible.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 23, 2009 15:03:18 GMT
Ok... fair enough. My questions that I would like addressed are: How can the following issues in the quote be resolved? Also, since we are currently the 4th most active group, why are we being treated as if we are moving "back" to DM when we have more of a presence there than some of the other orgs combined? Also, to make myself more clear, I'm not questioning your authority to be here on Jason's behalf... I'm questioning why he delegated such an important issue. In my opinion, if he cares so much, he should show his concern and do what you are doing himself, especially considering that you have been put into an impossible situation. No slam to you at all intended. I know you have addressed some of this already, but here are my biggest concerns which I feel have not been fixed enough despite being addressed. 1. I don't care how reliable you say DM will be, it isn't and will never be. Maybe I am living in the past on this, but history has shown time and time again that DM is a horrifically unreliable site. It has only crashed twice in the past 2 years or so... that is probably true, but, you are not including the countless times that it has still been up, but has been too slow to actually use. DM has a nasty habit of operating at the speed of a system 10 years old, and now you want us to add MORE traffic to the already failing site? Every time this is brought up we hear of some magical new server or some other technology that is so "promising," and EVERY time in the past 4+ years, the magical new technology has been a complete and total bust. Hearing talk of searching for new forums and better servers just sounds the same as all the other fruitless promises. 2. I do trust that the admins won't go into our private boards unasked-- that has never been an issue with me. What IS an issue however is that because Corki has fought so hard for us, his reputation amongst DM staff has been sullied. (I have seen this in RL among some of the site admins... and that was when his reputation was far better than now, so there is no way this can be argued against truthfully.) With the site admin having such an opinion of our org leader, I don't see any way that the Band will ever have fair and impartial say on important site issues. If the Band stays here, we lose DM. If we move to DM, we are treated like a second-rate org. **just for clarification, I want to emphasize that I have no personal problem with the group I saw in RL... only in their treatment of Corki. On a personal level I actually thought they were quite a fun group.**2. We have HUNDREDS of reviews, and most of them have been archived with links. I have devoted hours to this project, and unless a DM admin personally volunteers to fix EVERY link to make my hours not a stupid waste of time when they are moved to DM, I will fight this tooth and nail to the bitter end. 3. So many people have said that DM feels so uncomfortable to them. They have been shunned by other orgs, and posting there for other than a roll-call is a chore, both becuase of how amazingly slow it can be often be, and because they feel uncomfortable outside of the Band for that reason. DM has largely turned into a huge high school full of cliques on every level, from the admin down to some of the newest members. Yes, the Band has in some ways too (every social group will), but not in such a negative way. 4. Jason owns DM. I used to have no problem with him, and when he offered to come here to listen to our complaints in person, I was thrilled. He came, listened for a day or two, then never came back despite his promise to listen. Total bust. I don't want us to belong to a site whose owner has had such a blatent disrespect for us. I get the impression this is strictly a money move for him so DM gets more visits to make his precious advertisments pay more. He has already shown he has minimal interest in how we actually do things so long as we are big and make his pretty site look good. 5. Rank Icons-- We are a military org, and as such, we need to be able to display our rank. With only space for one avatar at DM, not only is this totally voluntary there, but you have to choose which org to display. 6. Titles-- Just like rank icons, we lose our ranks and positions under our names. Not cool.
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Post by Paladin Jon the Direwolf on Jan 23, 2009 15:04:09 GMT
So, again I will ask..... why can't our boards co-exist?
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 15:08:28 GMT
Well, I have rarely had problems with DM functioning. But, I have always said that. I would venture to say that, of anyone in the Band, only Tay posts more at DM than I do. Cons: Loss of options(Sig size, extra Avatars, rank titles), Loss of Admin Control(addressed below in question), Pruning of boards, etc. Pros: Having only one site to visit, Questions: A lot has been said about admin access....is there less flexibility at DM? I am not experienced with the staff access at DM, but I know that here any person can be given access to any specific boards they need to(I had admin access to the Carnival board inside the range, but not the range board itself). What powers do Org leaders NOT have at DM?Suggestions: We are looking into making this move at the same time as DM is bringing up new boards? I understand the thought of locking something here after it is active at DM, but perhaps a gap in between(ie New Range at DM on Monday, then Lock the old Range boards at PB the following Monday) to allow for any hiccups that may occur in the transition. I know there are more Pros and Cons than the ones I listed, but I am only listing the one's that I can think of that directly affect me(that I can think of). And, to be honest all of them are not end of the world issues to me. To me Jason's promises matter little, DM almost always runs fine, Admin control affects the highest levels more so than I, and Admins seeing private boards doesn't seem a big deal(I can't say as I have ever seen anything in Private or Staff boards that would be that important to hide). I understand that this has been a long fought discussion, with a bit of animosity in the interim, and I appreciate a diplomatic approach, but it really does sound like little has been offered by DM except the final join us or leave, meh. Samurai... i completely did not see your post. I am working hard on getting Org Leaders Admins over their boards. I completely agree they should have it. If you could send me what plug in/add on that is being used over on your site, I would appreciate it. If it can be done without giving someone admin rights over all the boards, we will do it. Matalina has feelers out to see if other board admins have this option for mybb.
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 15:21:40 GMT
1. I don't care how reliable you say DM will be, it isn't and will never be.
I can't answer the tech aspects of this. Corki has the same question into Fader to answer. I will let Corki get back to you on this. I do not want to say one thing and be wrong.
2. Corki and his rep
I have the upmost respect for Corki. I will never disregard his opinion or think less of him if he disagrees with someone I say. I am going to be upfront with you here. I think we all know he doesn't like some other members of staff. He has said some bad things about them. This may have hurt his relationship with these people. I think this can be repaired though, on both sides. Respect is a two way street. As long as I am Org Admin, I will not let him be treated any less than any other Org Leader though, that is my promise to you.
2. We have HUNDREDS of reviews...
I had thought your reviews would go to your wiki.
3. DM is a chore and their are cliques...
Posting at DM has never been a chore for me. It may feel like a chore to you because you can come over here and post. Then you have to come over to DM to post again because it is required of you. If you had one set of boards on one site, it may be less of a chore. DM does have cliques. Honestly some do seem high schoolish. I don't visit with them. I find my home on my DM and spend time with the people I want. That is why DM is nice.
4. Jason wants us to go back to get more money...
No. If this is true, I never heard him say anything. I highly doubt this has anything to do bring the Org back to DM.
5. Rank Icons
Yeah not going to change. You can choose your avi if you identify with the Band to fit your Rank Icon.
6. Titles--
Sorry again. You can always put a title in your profile that reflects under your name.
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 15:27:31 GMT
I have given Kivam my username and password to these boards. I figure the more admins the better answering your questions.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 23, 2009 15:32:17 GMT
1. Why can't we have two avi's? I know that in many other boards, you can have one or two set by a mod, and one set by yourself.
2. DM is not a chore because I am both here and there. It is a chore because it is slow and its layout (both mechanically and graphically) is unfriendly.
3. If it is not about the money... why? Why force a group of people to do something they so strongly do not want to do? "because we want all of DM to be at DM" is a BS answer... we ARE at DM already... seriously, the only difference is right now, the bulk of our private boards are at a different url.
It also can't be so that visitors see anything at all.... everything moving to the band would be private anyways, so no visitors could see it. (This argument has been used by Jason before)
There is no logical explanation. Jason may not have said it, but I still think that is partly behind his reasoning, especially after he told everyone two years ago to click on the ads more so DM would get more money.
4. So the wiki will be left alone?
5. I respect your stance on Corki, but there are DM admin above you, and other org leaders who have been above you before and still wield that influence. Like you said, respect is a two-way street... maybe you can do some good, but changes like that usually have to come from the top down... they usually don't go in the reverse direction. Who knows though... maybe...
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jan 23, 2009 15:33:18 GMT
Can you please have anyone using your name identify that they are not you when they post, please?
That is cool... Kivam has always seemed to have a cool head on his shoulders...
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 15:37:33 GMT
Can you please have anyone using your name identify that they are not you when they post, please? That is cool... Kivam has always seemed to have a cool head on his shoulders... Of course!!! I already made this request. I don't want people to get too confused. Kivam is another Admin that has great respect for Corki and the Band. He also supports the move back to DM though. -Empy
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Post by emperor on Jan 23, 2009 16:24:23 GMT
Hey all, this is Akiva (Kivam) posting on Empy's account (he gave me access for this discussion only, since it impacts all of DM) Just wanted to throw my $.02 in - feel free to ignore it DM doesn't, and probably won't, allow us to do all the things we do here. THAT is the biggest objection most of us have besides board speed and security of our information and Jason has already informed us quite clearly that there's no room for movement on issues like sigs. I don't really care what the DM admins' reasons or feelings are on larger sig sizes for example ... we like them and that's the issue. Yep - in the end, that's the be all and end all of this issue, and its a decision you'll need to make for yourselves: Does being DM's Band mean enough to you to compromise on whatever features you'll lose if you move over. I know - since I'm on the inside of the Admin discussions - that we're happy to give you as many features as we can manage, technically, without causing bigger problems (I'm not a tech guy myself, so I can only listen when people tell me what can and can't be done). But I have no doubt that there will be some things that won't be able to be replicated. So yes, you'll be losing some things. And you'll need to balance that against what you gain by being at DM (whatever you feel that is). Completely understand. But basically, that's not happening. The tech people told us that pruning wouldn't impact the functioning of the boards in any measurable way, and the issue (as I understand it) was that the software was in need of an update. Right now, DM's message boards are loading faster for me than I've ever seen them, and I didn't notice a difference in speed when I loaded these boards. Tay, this is the part of the post that really made me want to respond, because I want to be clear about something. Whatever the Band decides - if you guys become a stand alone WoT site or not - every single Band member is welcome to continue posting at DM as much or as little as they want to. I don't know about the rest of you, but I post on multiple boards (two NY Jets fan sites - jetnation.com and jetsinsider.com, DM, and - when work isn't so crazy - myndjack [yeah, yeah, its been months since I've had a chance to head back there. I know #sad-smiley-047# ]). I, for one, am dang glad Riva started posting at D&D, and most of you make similar contributions to DM beyond your membership in the Band. Even if the Band goes its own way, I hope that doesn't change, and I don't see any reason why it should. As for the reverse - whether the Band will lose people if you move all the way back to DM - sorry, I don't understand why that would be. Are there really people who "can't" post on DM, or who absolutely refuse to? Why?
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