Post by Blademaster Mystica on Aug 19, 2007 10:23:00 GMT
jason said:
Hi folks,Yes, I am here now. Sorry it took a while. It's nothing personal. Like I told Corki via email, I have valid excuses I could throw at you all day long, but they would just sound lame. So let's get to it, shall we?
First off, thank you for inviting me here. You clearly have a thriving community and I'm really proud of what you guys have built. I hope you're proud of it too. I would never dream of stepping in and diving you guys. That's not my intent with this effort to bring everyone back to DM. My goal, in fact, is to give you guys fertile ground to setup your community with DM where it started, and allow you to thrive and grow with the huge flow of new members. Also, you guys have the potential to be a true pillar to the Dragonmount website due to your activity and passion.
I have read this entire thread. I've looked over the website. And this post will answer every single question you've put forth. I'll get to it now
I would like to start off with a personal impression after reading all of your answers and based on earlier dealings I had with you personally.
You seem and come across to me as a guy that truelly does have the best intentions and has the well being of your site and all it's members' at heart. Regardless my rantings and ravings you go out of your way (eventually lol) to address any issue brought to you and it is overly clear to me that you are a person one can reason with.
Having said that, I'm sorry to report that you have a somewhat rosegarden view on your DM Staff as 'our' experience with them couldn't be more different from the impressions you seem to have of them. This is not based on personal or biased crap, this is based on time after time being confronted with an attitude that is totally the opposit of what you describe. Given that you càn't monitor every thread, board or post (which is indeed humanly impossible on a site like DM) it is easy to overlook or even not be aware of it. And it is equally possible for them to put up a totally different face when dealing with you versus when dealing with 'your' members. Let us not forget that we joined Dragonmount, which is supposed to be led by Jason. But we are forcebly subjected to a group of people who couldn't be more different in their handling of the members as you do. So who's site is it in the end? Who sets the atmosphere, the ambiance? I'm sorry to say Jason, but you have been grossly missled.
On several times in your post you mention that Corki is our voice on the Admin/Staff board. Well Corki is exactly the one that has been fighting windmills for months if not years agàinst that staff you speak so highly off. It is exactly that stage in your hiarchy that blocks any attempts we have or put forth from even reaching you, lest we contact you directly, which undermines your request to 'go through Corki, who will put it before the Admins, who will put it before me'. Corki does put it before the Admins, and they kill it off. It never even reaches you, so basically you are kept in the dark by that fabulous staff of yours.
I'm a straight forward person and not the most diplomat one, especially when I'm defending something close to my heart. But you can ask anyone that knows me, I àlways put the well being of my team, my org ànd my site (thus your site) ahead of my own. I'll stand against anyone that threatens that, including Corki who can testify me doing the exact same thing for the Hornsounder. But show me you have the well being of your members at heart and I'll be behind you 100%. Jùst as I have àlways backed up Corki on DM and would go through fire and back defending him. (even if he does force me to nag the crap outta' him to submit his articles on time lol).
jason said:
This subdomain would be hosted on DM, of course, and you would have full access to edit it all you wanted. Overall, I just ask that the look and feel be something related to DM. I'm willing to work with you to make a custom design for your Org, but my standards would be high and I'd like it to "look like it was part of DM"...whatever that means. I'll work with Corki on this personally.That actually does sound like a good deal. On paper. 'You' are willing to work with us, but we still have to knock that that concrete wall that's your Admin Staff. And as others have already mentioned, things take forever on Dm to get done, so if we're gonna be depending on you guys to get stuff done, we may lose half our members in the wait. No offense and I realise people have Real Lives and I'm the last to knock on that, but it's not really that difficult: If you offer something to a wide community and make it so that people turn it into a real hobby, using their time and efforts and skills to poor into that hobby, then the least that should be done is to make sure that backups are in place to step in when one of the pillars is temporarily out. This constant hogging on to Power Positions (I know you don't see it as such, but that IS how a lot of us feel the DM Admins are doing) without even the will to delegate things to those that have time and are willing and able is pathetic.
Your standards may be big, but if the current look of DM is what will be required to be used of a website, I'm sorry but I'll pass It's already much better than the black one (shockhorror) but let's be honest, standards don't have to be thàt big if they end up looking like that
jason said:
Okay, wow. This Hornsounder thing seems like a big deal. First off let me say it's a GREAT IDEA and I love it. I'd love for it to get bigger. I don't think its pretentous at all to want to cover other orgs and make a DM-wide newspaper. I applaud the idea and wish it luck. I remember a number of attempts to do a similar thing over the years at DM. (God, we're going to be 9 years old next month! Crazy!!!!)- You are welcome to have a dedicated website for the Hornsounder
- You are welcome to have dedicated forum(s) for the Hornsounder. All I ask is that you genuinely try to keep the number of forums down and consolidate where possible.
I'm glad you like the Hornsounder and that you are willing to let us continue, and yes I understand a need to keep the number of forums down but I'm a big one for organising things (mainly because otherwise my mind goes on strike) and what I feel is needed may not necessarily be the same as what the Admins feel.
Again it comes down to your DM Staff, as there is where the true problem lies and the root to every single issue that occurs on DM. But you don't seem to be seeing that for some reason as they seem to have you truelly and well blinded as to how they threat 'your' members.
The reason a lot of us don't trust your words is not because we don't trust 'you' or 'your' sincerity when you say something. It's because we 'know' from experience that at the end of the day it's not 'you' that we deal with on a day-to-day basis, but your Admins and it there that àll of the problems occur. They do whatever the hell they please, regardless what you say, and since they're the ones the Org Leaders have to go to and they're the ones that are supposed to bring stuff before you, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this whole setup falls apart. By the time we spit our guts at you we have usually already been going to your admins time after time and are so frustrated, angry and demotivated that you get the full force of our mallcontent over you. Many don't even bother to contact you, why should they? It's so obvious what's going on on the boards that most think you really do need to be blind to miss it. So the logical result of that is that most are convinced you are aware of it and (in not stepping in to rectify things) you are ok with it. It's only idiots like us that take the time to be bothered enough to actually come to you.
jason said:
I know Alicia (Matalina) personally and I know she would never dream of stealing anybody's idea. Again, you might be surprised the number of masks people can put on themselves to show a different face depending who they're dealing with. But i'm inclined to believe at least this part as I have indeed noticed her be quite sensitive about authors rights and the like. *nods*
jason said:
When she asked the other DM admins and I (Jenn, Kevin, and Owen) if she could start a DM-wide newsletter I said YES cause I thought it was a great idea. Why did I say that? Cause I truly did not know your Hornsounder idea was still happening. And part of that is because, at the time, your org mostly happens over here. It wasn't happening in the broad daylight of Dragonmount.com. Now I'm not saying that as an accusation. Please don't take it as such. All I'm saying is that this might be a good example of why having your org (and all the others) together under one umbrella will really help the communication flow better between everyone.Had I known your Hornsounder newspaper was so active, and had I known of your intent, I would not have given the thumbs-up to Matalina. I would have made the following suggestion to her, just as I am going to make it to you now:
Work together.
I suggest you email Matalina, or whoever maintains the Illuminator project, and talk about joining forces somehow. Maybe you guys cover certain things and they do others. There's plenty of stuff to go around. People at DM are starving for fresh content like that and we have the tools do it. I love the Hornsounder name because it relates back to the books, and I love the idea behind it.
I can't speak for Matalina, but I have a strong hunch that she would agree with what I said before. She's a kind woman and I don't think she would ever want to steal something like this. My guess is she was in the dark about your efforts too, or at least thought it had slowed down too much.
Even so, I assure you there's no favorites being played. It's no secret that I'm not super active at DM on the forums, so if you want something brought to my attention, my email INBOX is the best way to get it.
Your thoughts?
Tay addressed this already but I'll add my voice to that.
It is absolutely impossible for anyone 'not' to be aware of the Hornsounder on DM. That you didn't know of it may be linked to that you don't read the boards, but anyone even remotely active on the boards can't miss it.
1. At the launch of the new Hornsounder in March, Corki ànd I did our rounds on àll the public boards of DM announcing the newspaper, it's setup, it's contents and a public and non-limited invitation for évery single group of DM (Orgs, General boards, RP side) to submit articles to go in the Hornsounder each month. Matalina was one of the ones that got all snotty over the whole idea from the start, saying it would never last, offering an alternative with wordpress (which I personally don't like due to the lack of personalisation options), etc.
2. Every month I do the rounds of the Orgs 'twice' a month. First at the launch of each new edition in the beginning of the month, and again a reminder for articles around the 20th of each month. Creating a thread called '[Orgname] published in the Hornsounder + call for articles for [next month]'. Links to the published edition are posted in those threads + a notification of it is put in my siggy every month.
Matalina's Org, the Illuminators, have been a contributor to the Hornsounder since the start (evidence of that you can easily check up on if you take the time to check the Band's public boards on the old DM boards or even check the Edition that is now published at DM on the new boards). Wes is the one that submitted a HUGE and fantastic article each month for the Illuminators, highlighting àll of their subgroups' activities and events. Matalina even commented in her announcement of this DM-Newsletter how this would not affect the Hornsounder.
So please, don't tell me she didn't know, for she knew àll too well. The success of the Hornsounder after 5 (going on to 6 months) was something she never thought possible. But now that it hàs proven to be so successful ànd in high demand, now all of a sudden she comes up with this DM-wide newsletter in gossip style. I've moved on though, because we operate on a different system than they're planning. But the point is she 'did' know the Hornsounder existed. You not knowing it, frankly, is not my or my teams's fault. We couldn't have broadcasted it any better than we do, short of emailing you every month about it.
As for the Hornsounder 'not' being visible enough on DM. Explain to me how TWO groups totally unrelated to the Band or even any of the ORGs stepped up to me of their own account and àsked if they could be included in the Hornsounder? This month we feature the Tinkers as the newcomers and next month we'll most likely have the Game's board added to the pack. These are two boards I don't even advertise the publication in and even they are aware of the Hornsounder. Don't tell me Mat, who is Org Leader of the Illuminators, doesn't notice the thread announcement going up in her own Org for the last 5 months.
So um..... yeah, maybe check your notes first before deciding it's due to offsite activity.
As for us not calling the Hornsounder a DM-newspaper, there is a very good reason for it.
First off, the Hornsounder is one of the biggest points earning tools of the Band and as such first and foremost a Band's tool. Other Orgs are free to offer points to their members for submitting articles, but the HS Team doesn't decide that or is in any way involved in those decisions. I keep the record of points for the Band writers and HS team and submit it each month to the UC for promotions. I had to actually call Corki back from calling it a DM-newspaper because I got complaints that the bulk of it was Band-related stuff. Well duh... It's a Band's tool offering a service to the wider DM community, but for that I been called arrogant and pretentious. But let it be known that those calling it so, are also those that never take the trouble to actually make something themselves, don't get involved in anything productive and have yet to show any form of involvement whatsoever other than sitting in a position basking in their own glory. They can be counted on one hand, versus the countless douzains that have voiced their appreciation and liking of the Hornsounder. (and nope, im not talking about Mat here)
Second, when I took over the Hornsounder I had to remake it from scratch as it was nothing more than a collection of 'articles' for points gathering goals. It was the first time I did something like that and I didn't want to take on more than I could chew. I wanted to see what we could do and had to wait and see how my team would end up. It was a gamble that paid off due to hard work, long hours and constant dedication. From the entire team ànd from the Senior Staff of the Band giving me the freedom to do with it as I see fit. All of the SS are involved as Section Reporters and they each submit themselves to 'my' rules where the HS is concerned and they are threated exàctly the same as all my other team members. I truelly, honestly, from the bottom of my heart can NOT see this happening with the DM Admins. they'd be slamming rank on me faster than you can say brew. Tying my hands as surely as my hands are currently tied in the WT, where effort to bring meaning, content and fun to the org and my ajah is being killed off by Kathana.
You may be a reasonable guy, Jason. But your choice of Admins leaves much to be desired. It may work for your purposes, but as far as your members go, they are Royally Screwed.
jason said:
One last thing about this... moving forward, do you see the Hornsounder as being an email newsletter or a blog type thing that people have to go to? Or both? Whichever way we go, I've got great ideas and you will have the tools to do this on a site wide scale easily.Like Tay said, the Hornsounder is too big to be emailed. Plus that would undo the whole DM Staff goal of 'bringing activity back to DM'. When I first set up the new policies for the HS one of the things that went in there right along side the Band-related matters was that the HS would help in achieving that DM Staff goal, thus being Published on the DM Band board and it was a big part of 'why' the HS was opened to the other Groups on DM as another goal of the DM Staff was to 'increase interaction between the different Orgs'. Only it very much feels that the moment one tries to actually address any of those goals with a good idea, suddenly the green monster's head appears.
I'm not familiar with blogs so I can't answer you on that one, but if they're anything like Wordpress, then they probably have the same type of personalisation restrictions and that would greatly undo the creative side of the newspaper. I dunno about you, but personally I don't quite like staring at a white screen with not much else but line after line of text. That's what I got books for
I'm certainly interested to hear your ideas, but like said before, I don't trust the Admins on DM. I'm sorry, but I just don't. Too many times have they demonstrated what kind of 'leader' they are for you to be able to convince me otherwise. And story after story from others with similar experiences only enhance that feeling of mistrust in them.
jason said:
A valid question. I want you to have full control over the content. Frankly, I don't have the time to micromanage every part of DM. I want you guys to have the freedom to post articles, reviews, or whatever without the input of the DM admins or myself. I want you to run your own show. But to do that, the Admins and I need to trust you. I think that's easy to understand and valid, wouldn't you? And to a large extent I already trust you. Corki is doing a great job managing your community. I want to keep it going that way.That's just it, we don't trust your admins. It's not the first time we told you this but with them it's 'their way or the high way' and whatever 'they' prefer is whatever is happening, regardless anyone else's feelings. I'm not gonna put my time, effort, skills and sweat in creating a site and a new feature only to see it usurped by your admins. You can trust them all you want, but we don't. (this new feature I had planned doing in the summer, btw but that has been killed due to this whole move thing. Everything was set, the site is made, the policy is set, the workings of the site is made, etc. 2 months' worth of work down the drain)
jason said:
For policy, the best approach is to have Corki be your represenatives as to what you want. Then have him work with myself and the DM admins to all agree on how we want to manage and moderate the community. For the most part I think you guys see eye to eye with me on what is OK at DM and what is not. (It's those SG people we have to look out for...hehehe) So let's discuss policy and come to an agreement. Corki is the man to start this talk with.with you yes, ........ see earlier comments.
jason said:
I see no reason why light RPing, bantering and silly posts should not be allowed. For role playing, all I ask is that if you want to do any long term role playing, use our formal RPG. It's cool. It's fun. Use it. But if you want to role play here and there (like acting out advancements...) then go for it. That's awesome.your view here goes directly and undeniably against Kath's view, which she IS imposing on àll Orgs on the DM boards. Another example of what 'you' think and 'you' allow is not by definition what your members end up with. It's whatever your admins feel 'they' want that we end up with.
jason said:
Serious debates. *sigh* Again, if it were entirely up to me, I'd can all these disucssions about politics and religion and all that. They just encourage flame wars. You know it, and I know it. It's asking for trouble and "I" shouldn't have to deal with it on "my" website. We're a WoT fan site, not the United Nations. I agree, certain topics should be off limits. But that's not the type of serious discussions that was being referred to. Anything light hearted or just plain fun is being deemed as 'unworthy' by some of your admins, who superimpose that in the Orgs they rule and look down their noses on any Org that allows them, consequently resulting in those Orgs automatically being on their black list and thus making it even harder for those Orgs to get new ideas passed by the Admin Wall.
jason said:
With all due respect I think your belief in the above is mis-lead or mis-informed. Smilies are fine. We all like them. I've been insanely jealous of Mike's WoT smilies [at wotmania.com] for nearly a decade. I wish somebody would make us a nice custom WoT set. (hint hint)and with all due respect right back atya' but I have personally seen Kath 'saying' in several threads on the old boards that 'she doesn't like smilies and thus there won't be an extension to them and if she could get rid of them all she would'.
jason said:
If you want new smilies, just ask. Go through the proper channels. In this case, Corki is yout go-to guy. Bug him. He bugs the admins. The admins bug me. We'll get it done.The admins bug you only for things they themselves want to see implimented. Nothing else. Corki's been 'bugging' them for years on several things.
The whole 'Mightier than thou' attitude from the Admins on DM is mind boggling, really. Maybe they're working for your personal purposes, but they are causing truckloads of your members to leave DM. A lot already have moved on to other places and are making that their home, disgusted by their whole DM Experience. New ones may be coming in, but it remains to be seen just how involved those will be, while members that have already proven to be involved and have already proven to be willing, capable and able to help increase the quality of your members on the site are being threated like dirt and eventually leave.
In Economics that's one of the reasons a manager gets fired. Losing existing clients, for their profitability rate is 100% higher than new clients.
Knowing you now and seeing you for someone that is much more reasonable than the admins, that makes my blood boil because they are the ones harming your site every bit as much as they are harming our experiences. But I guess if you don't see it, you don't see it. *shrugs* i'm not gonna keep pouring my energy and time in a lost cause. Got better and more productive things to do with what little free time I have.