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Post by dicetosser1 on Jul 16, 2007 4:23:03 GMT
I rarely go to DM for a number of reasons. 1 I find it difficult to log on there at times. I have had massive profile problems there and its down too regularly and the load times are ridiculous
2 They are to anal. They are so picky about language its not funny. and im not talking about swearing my head off either
3 possibly an offshoot of 2 I feel.....stifled there. I cant sit back and let rip.
4 I dont agree with threatening to ban ppl just because they dont do what u want. We encourage ppl to go to DM. We dont openly recruit pple to here. We dont say once ure here u dont have to go there.
5 Is there enuff room on DM for all the stuff already there + all the stuff already here+ all the stuff we will add??
I agree with Corki and others that we should maintain our boards but continue to interact with DM
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Post by taymist on Jul 16, 2007 5:01:14 GMT
And the point isn't just the banner advertisements..it's that the url is DM affiliated.Actually, no, its not. DM isn't in the url of this site. It only says "botrh". I am also more than fed up with those of you referring to Kath as a b*tch or negativley in any way. Mostly because you have never even spoken to her and have no knowledge of her except hearsay.My attitude regarding Kath is based on her own posts and the attitudes she's displayed therein. Not on hearsay. It doesn't take much to build up a picture of a person from their posting and if they don't want to be perceived negatively then they should consider what they type before posting. Quite apart from which, whether you are fed up or not, remember that we are all entitled to our own opinions, even if others consider them to be ill informed. Jason did ask for feedback and has listened, the skin color has changed, the layout has chanaged, and the new DM has a lot of great features! I didn't think I liked it at first, then I spent some time posting and spamming and they are wonderful! Much more user friendly than the 7.0 version. Those of you who don't like them..how much time have you actually spent on them?Speaking personally, a considerable amount of time, as always, given the number of Orgs I'm involved in. The boards themselves aren't the issue to me, they're boards, they work, they've gradually improved as corrections have been made even if the smilies are crap. The point is that they weren't changed because of feedback, they'd always intended to change the initial layout anyway. Kath told us that right at the start. Initially, a lot of people didn't spend much time there because of the board colours which was understandable.... then again, others are disheartened due to the loss of data. Its hard to get going again when you're left with a mess like that, I don't care how many times some people have been through it before, I'm sure many of us at many sites have experienced something similar. DM is not the only freaking web site out there. It doesn't make it any easier to cope with when you see all your hard work lost. And just because some people are prepared to suck that up doesn't mean we all have to. Customer Service? That is so off base. We are not customers of DM, we are users. Merrium Webster, the online dictionary, Wikepedia defines a customer:
Main Entry: cus·tom·er Pronunciation: 'k&s-t&-m&r Function: noun Etymology: Middle English custumer, from custume 1 : one that purchases a commodity or service
Not a single one of us has purchase a thing to be at DM. We are Users. We have the PRIVLEDGE of participating in this site. Jason has supported and maintained this out of his pocket, his own time, interest and dedication.Purchasing does not automatically imply money. We are customers of DM in as much as we "purchase" or "trade" our personal time, energy and input into making it the site it is. Each of us does that to a different degree naturally but the whole of it entitles us to our concerns that we have now. Without members, there is no DM. Its a two way street and far from being a mere privilege. You hit the nail on the head with that last comment... he CHOSE to do this, no-one forced him. The fact that he has done so, is not somehow our fault and does not mean we have to agree like sheep with everything he says or does when we've invested time and effort in the site as well. The banner ads do generate financial support for DM. When the 7.0 boards came on, we, the DM community, were asked and encouraged to click on them to help support the site. This was posted in general discussion and I believe talked about in several orgs..I know the Tower and the Kin did. If anything, I imagine Jason is losing money on this site, especially as most of you are saying you never click on the ads. If he is making anything..so what? It would pay him back for his investment. I am sure he isn't swilling fine wine and cavier from whatever pittance there is.That isn't the issue. Its the deliberate MISLEADING of the members on this point. If the money generated is helping to keep the site going then great. But if there is more being made that is being invested elsewhere and unrelated to DM then that hasn't been spelled out to the members. He can't have it both ways. He's either pursuing a hobby that gives us a forum, out of the goodness of his heart or he's running a business ... not both. One implies profit and the other doesn't. All the RR stuff, all the ways to earn points,except JoTS, the Regimental business is here at the proboards. If all of that was focused at DM...you probably would have been at DM more. The admins ok'd a new board..for just the lottery...why couldn't we have added a board for some of the Band's activities to focus on DM, instead of here? Because at that time, the DM boards weren't set up to handle the structure of the things we have here such as the RRs and the Reviews. And now its the worry of more data loss. It doesn't matter what they promise by way of everything being smooth and perfect, it won't be. They are completely incompetent when it comes to that. Either there's a major issue with their database or they just simply don't have a clue what they're doing. Neither thought is especially reassuring. But the mess of the recent move should not have happened under competent management.
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Post by Northie on Jul 16, 2007 8:50:24 GMT
corki and i had a long chat about this last night and i think we are agreed that all of this boils down to two simply issues, both of which are easily solved:
1. Data loss moving from proboards to DM
2. Input from DM admins
possible solution for issue 1:
corki had the great idea of setting up another proboards site for the band and possibly DM to spam to their hearts content. then Jason can use that site as a test to see if the data copying works and how well it works. that way we can see that the system works and we can trust them to handle our information. also, the fact that the majority of our threads are just old ones and in archives and we can keep these boards as archive boards means that, in fact, not as much information would be moved as there could be. personally im extreamly grateful to the admins for being willing to try and move stuff over from these boards in the first place. they dont have to
possible solution for issue 2:
this is more tricky. however, in the short term, it might have to be that we simply ask for the admins agreement that they dont get involved in our new boards unless corki asks them to, and we may have to trust their word on that. also, as tay said, with all the new boards (which there could potentially be several hundred of) the admins wont have the time to nose about too much anyway, and i wouldnl;t be surprised if new admins were appointed to help the others cope. maybe "junior" adminships for the org leaders in time? who knows. considering the scale of the move, i think it would be exceptionally difficult to try and set up where admins can and cannot go initially, therefore their word might be the best we can get as a compromise. when everything is set up and working, we can reevaluate it. if it works, fine and we can see about how we can make things work for us
this issue has been around for almsot 2 weeks now. people have been fighting it for that long and from what i have gathered they have made no headway whatsoever. to be that sets alarm bells ringing that they aren;t going to change their minds. so, we have to work with them for the good of the org and the good of DM. we have until january 1st. thats about 4.5 months for us to straighten out our concerns with admins. i believe corki is going to or has sent an email to jason about this, and hopefully he will be willing to give it a shot. either way, we will have t compromise, like with most things in life. fighting it, from the signs we have seen now, will make no difference whatsoever.
also to totally dispell this myth about carrying on in secret, horn mentioned in the staff board that DM is a copyright site. therefore Jason can quite easily present the copyright to proboards and ask them to delete this site, and i think they probably would as he could sue them otherwise. so, i say again, find ways of working with DM instead of fighting it as it seems futile and pointless at the moment
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Post by amavia on Jul 16, 2007 10:00:39 GMT
Okay I've just spend a whiole lot of time reading now it's my turn...
I have personnaly nothing against Kath, the main reason for this is that I do not interact with her much. And after everything I've just read I don't think I'd want to at the moment.
I am for the very first time really pissed. Many of you guys know that I hate politics and I've never even bothered to get myself involved in any arguments (here and on DM) But Right now I really do not like the way this is being handled by DM staff.
Jason would NEVER have been able to make DM a Business if it weren't for us. I understand why he is doing this but he should never forget that he would not have had all of this if it weren't for every member. He is nowhere without the members as they ARE DM.
I hope that the right decicion will be made soon because if it will be the subbdomain then we will have a whole lot of work ahead of us...
That's it...now I am going to cool my head down before I start on a killing spree (mind ya I am holding myself back right now)
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Post by Northie on Jul 16, 2007 10:10:59 GMT
i think we can all agree that the org leaders should have been consulted first before this was decided. however, this is the way it has panned out so there is little point in complaining about it.
if the transfer goes at planned, then in theory we have very little work to do because we should just be able to pick up where we left off. its the admins who have the work actually setting the thing up, which while its not complicated to do (thats speculation from what its like to set up boards here) its alot of time and work
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Post by faelene on Jul 16, 2007 11:02:22 GMT
From a RR perspective and someone fairly new to DM, I was a little thrown off by the fact that there are offsite boards. Being apart of 3 orgs, all of which have off-board sites makes it a bit too time consuming for my taste. I really enjoy and want to be apart of each org. . . but while making my internet rounds, it becomes a little annoying to have to sign into so many different forums, when I feel they are all supposed to be part of the same large community. I respect and admire the obviously extensive work that has gone into this particular offboard site and find the format to be well-organized with enjoyable features. I have no idea what it takes to setup and run forum based sites,(or any site for that matter) but if it wold be at all possible to have something similar on the main DM site, I would prefer that.
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Post by Blademaster Mystica on Jul 16, 2007 11:52:27 GMT
My viewpoint is clear to most and I totally agree with Tay and Amavia in their posts.
I'd like to add to that, that Corki and others in staff positions hàve been having conversations with Kath on numerous occasions on boards not publically available to most and they are not just going on hearsay, neither am I. As Tay rightfully puts a lot can be deducted from reading a person's post, the wording they use, the style they use and enough posts exist of Kath for anyone with eyes to see the lack of consideration for the members' concerns. People like Egwene don't resign over a random occuring dissagreement or a onetime issue.
Amavia voiced perfectly the core of the whole business issue and the twisted sence of 'responsibility' that has been put upon each and every one of you that feels you 'owe' them something. It's quite ironic, really. We are fighting for the rights of those that so fervently defend their abusers. But like most blind brainwashed victoms, you don't see the truth that's clear in front of you. In the end, we won't be the ones they take advantage of. You will be, as you continue to let them use you for their own benefit without having any say or any freedom in the matter. Follow as blind sheep or be erradicated. Sound familiar somehow? I guess not.
Faelene, I hear you. I had the exact same problem when I joined. DM is the first forum based community I ever joined and the thought of having to go to yet another site was bleh to me too. However, after a short time that changed and if it weren't for the offsite boards of the Band, I am certain I would have quit DM before I ever gotten to know it. It was boring, nothing was happening and there was nothing I could relate to or have fun with. Now you can say, and you would be right, that if all the activities be held on DM that wouldn't have happened. You're right if you think that. However, the thing is that there are a different set of restrictions on DM which make what we do at the Band impossible. And it is exactly those things that make the Band fun to be in and DM a boring place by comparison.
Those restrictions are put on us for the sole benefit of the admins having it easier to do their job. I understand their need to keep things manageable. But to force people to find their fun in what 'they' consider to be fun is arrogant. You can't order someone to have fun in something or to stop enjoying something just because of your own tastes and preferences. This line of thought has been clear in many situations where other people were called idiots, stupid, brainless, etc. Just for liking things that they don't. This is not hearsay either, I witnessed that in person and stood up against it. If the admins find it difficult to manage things, they should look at ways to solve that problem 'without' killing the fun for the members. If it becomes too big to deal with, they could install extra admins to help out. But they won't, because they are not willing to let go of even the smallest bit of power. This is really what it all comes down to in the end. Power and Profit.
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Post by Northie on Jul 16, 2007 12:54:25 GMT
you are right in saying alot can be deducted from someones post. however it is very easy to misinterpret and we have seen numerous occassions of that
one side has to be the bigger person. and its obvious the admin are not willingt o bend or even to listen at the moment. so if we conceed a little and work with them to this deadline, then once they have started talking we can better put forward what we want.
the band would still have its own site - but the server would be DM's server, if thats my understanding of subdomains. i dont know what that means in terms of admin. obviously the owner is an admin, but if im correct in saying subdomains are separate websites then maybe we could ask Jason if we could have our own admins instead of the DM ones for that site (apart from him of course). a thought for the future perhaps
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Post by M-G Corki on Jul 16, 2007 16:35:08 GMT
Latest news - I haven't been banned, and no reply has been made to my last post by an admin. It also appears the WT Div is against the move as well. Now, just a few points on Twinnie's post before I look at the rest. Manny I am ashamed of you. That is totally unethical. If the Band is caught directing people to these offsite boards, from DM, then they will be banned. And the point isn't just the banner advertisements..it's that the url is DM affiliated. I'm not for stealth. End of story. However, I will not be going down quietly if I am banned. I am also more than fed up with those of you referring to Kath as a b*tch or negativley in any way. Mostly because you have never even spoken to her and have no knowledge of her except hearsay. I will openly admit I don't like Kath or her attitude. I know she is a teacher, but I feel she treats everyone like a child. But that has been based on a couple of years with dealing with her in the DM Staff Board. The move to the new boards was NOT sudden or unknown. I was told we would be moving to new DM boards a couple months ago. It was known it was coming. Not the exact date I don't think. The administration didn't anticipate the problems that happened..it was intended as a seamless move. What a surprise...something didn't go perfect and before even giving them a chance to work it out, within in minutes people were posting complaints and whining. Jason did ask for feedback and has listened, the skin color has changed, the layout has chanaged, and the new DM has a lot of great features! I didn't think I liked it at first, then I spent some time posting and spamming and they are wonderful! Much more user friendly than the 7.0 version. Those of you who don't like them..how much time have you actually spent on them? Once I get the old Staff Board up, I'll get a few things to show that the move was a shambles. I now have the old Staff Board up. On June 11th 2007, Kath said we would hopefully finish the move by 1st August 2007. On the same day, Ata asked if we could spread the news, to which Matalina replied: Once we have a more solid timeline, we'll make it known to the community at large. This is just a general heads up so you know what's in the works. Then I suggested the following: Can I make suggestion? I know when this version of DM was released, Fader was in regular contact with me about the new boards. Therefore, would it be possible for ORG Leaders/Div Leaders/Board Moderators to have access before we open to the masses to set everything up? There are quite a few things I want to transfer over WITHOUT having to archive it. Also, it will mean that all important information will be up and ready to use once we open up to the masses. to which Kath agreed provided we couldn't transfer the data over as we eventually did. On June 12th, Kath wrote: I wouldn't let anyone know about it yet. This is a planned move, not a site crash the way we normall handle upgrades. We've had complaints for quite awhile that we're using outdated boards and we're addressing them.
Once we have a timetable for the move that's firmer than "Before Kathana starts her new job", we'll pass the word along to everyone so we can get ready. On June 13th, fader6818 (an admin) says the following: Since Jenn has to go an ruin the surprise...
To re-iterate what Jenn said, there are plans now, but they're just as likely to change as to stay the same so discussing them isn't exactly fair. The thread then dies on the 14th June 2007, with no more word about the move until its suddenness on the weekend of 30th June/1st July. No timetable as suggested. Nothing. Because we were told not to say anything, that is why the Band didn't know - AS THAT WAS THE INSTRUCTION because everything was still in the planning stage. And then the sudden move happened, with no warning for European and other DMers. No wonder we were up in arms, since Kath's post was at 2:11am (GMT) on Saturday 30th June and most of us were asleep. The deadline was 8am and I posted my reply at 1:45pm with "thanks for the fantastic amount of warning ". That shows the move was a shambles. Secondly, getting rid of the offiste boards is not a new development either. Corki brought this up with the new plan for posting at DM earlier this year with the music discussion threads, and explained this was a very real possibility. Frankly the "new plan" didn't do much...not that many people have participated in them, to increase the activity at DM. True, and hopefully we have a way to start changing that. I believe that a balance can be reached between off board sites and DM. I also feel (and Kath does) that there should be more WoT related stuff at DM as there is extremely little. I shouldn't tell you this (as it is Top Secret), but Jason wants to make a WoTipedia-like source of information at DM. The Band has already compiled information for that (the Battles Project) but this seems to have died a death. It is because the admins aren't pushing it. Also, Kath rejected an idea by Egwene that would have also started this project. Bottom line..Jason owns DM. Corki, when you started the Band you had to have permission from the admins to do so. You also had to have permission to create the offsite boards. You were given that privledge to pursue that. You have created a great Org...but all the Orgs had to have permission. The only reason any of them exist is because Jason said yes. If, for whatever reasons, he says there need to be changes..that's his choice. I did not need permission to make the off boards from anyone - not Jason, not Kath, no admin. The boards were created before we became an ORG because we knew of the restrictions in the number of private boards we could have at the time as we inquired about becoming an ORG. We were only allowed 1, even though I tried to push for more. It was only 1 because of the terrible server. It is only recently (only a couple of months ago) that the restriction on the number of private boards were removed. Off board sites occured because of the original restrictions in the past due to the server. I know some of you have said if it wasn't for the offsite, you wouldn't be involved. That's because all the activity is on the offsite. All the RR stuff, all the ways to earn points,except JoTS, the Regimental business is here at the proboards. If all of that was focused at DM...you probably would have been at DM more. The admins ok'd a new board..for just the lottery...why couldn't we have added a board for some of the Band's activities to focus on DM, instead of here? Because of the restriction on the number of private boards in the past, and the fact everything was set up here before the restriction was lifted.
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Post by manriva on Jul 16, 2007 16:35:32 GMT
I never suggested we try to keep it secret ... thats impossible, and i am most certainly not stupid.
The so called OWNER of a site can NOT control what sites I belong to.
They also can not control what sites I mention in conversations or posts with other community members. They have no right, they have no justification.
The only affiliation we have with DM is what affiliation we decide to have. Jason can show me his puny copyright any time he wishes and I will laugh in his face. What HE has a copyright to Band of the Red Hand? I don't think so.
That some people have been having a fine old time "spamming" at the new DM boards is telling.. That is all that DM is good for. You want info about the books? Go somewhere else. Info at DM is pitiful in comparison to other sites such as TarValon.net and we have links to WoT Encyclopedia but its not a DM thing as far as I can tell. There are others better than it too.
This matter of offsites is so shortsighted and shows such a lack of thought that it would be laughable were it not being handled in such a fascist manner. Yes... that is the correct term and not hyperbole. This is beyond paternalistic and a step short of totalitarian.... "You will do what I say, because if you don't you will be banned".. They would have been much better served to do the improvements to the site. Make the offers of new sub-boards and SHOW their boards are superior and let people move their activities there because they discover the site is better, than to demand our submission... I for one will not. Do I have a vote here? Yes I do.. I have feet.
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Post by M-G Corki on Jul 16, 2007 16:41:59 GMT
I am also going to be emailing Jason some time this week with a series of questions over the whole "business" aspect, as well as my concerns with sub domains.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jul 16, 2007 17:42:17 GMT
Manny, Jason does have the power to get proboards to delete this forum. So long as we are related to DM in any way, he has the legal right, and if proboards failed to comply, they could get a nasty lawsuit, and would probably lose.
No, Jason can't control what sites you belong to, but he can control if those sites say they are affiliated with his.
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Post by kristine on Jul 16, 2007 18:23:02 GMT
I've been silent... and that had to have been noticed since I usually speak my mind at any given opportunity. Now I'll break that silence to dispell quite a few myths... both from a technical and practical side, and my opinion.
I'm a computer genius... at least that's what I've been told on many occasions, so I think I am within my jurisdiction to say that if they think that they can move the offsite boards to DM with no data loss, they are smoking some wacky baccy and need to pass the pipe. The data on these boards are managed by proboards, not DM, and you as the board admin would have to do a data dump or backup of your database, request it from proboards to then import it into the DM database. If they try to do it any other way, with any utility, they'd have to be doing a manual copy of every post or thread and import it, then format it - They aren't going to do that. It is possible to write a script to import the text files, but they'd be asking the admins of the various boards to select what posts they'd want moved.
Practically, yes, we are part of DM, but from my knothole, I've not seen much of a benefit from being part of DM. I don't interact with any other society, and the ones - probably the wrong ones - that I've tried to break into have seemed... stuffy. Again, this is my opinion and its worth what you paid for - which by the way, you didn't pay anything if you are reading this. For the longest time DM has positioned themselves as RJs official fan site. They forget that there are other sites out there that are just as much a fan site as they are. Jason can copyright the name Dragonmount as a website, but he can't copyright any of the extras - he can't copyright mentioning Dragonmount as it pertains to the location in the book, he can't copyright Ogier, Aes Sedai, Band of the Red Hand or anything of that nature. It is very possible to run a site separate from DM and still do just fine.
I'm not saying that we should secede the Union right now or anything, but what I am saying is they are treating the orgs as if they can't maintain an existence separate from DM. I don't hold to being bullied, and I don't hold to being told that I am going to do something just because someone thinks that this was the original purpose all along. The thing is, it might have been the original purpose, but the scope has changed and needs to be readdressed. If the powers that be don't listen to people who state the obvious, maybe they shouldn't be the powers anymore.
DM will continue to always get traffic, yes the banner clicks are going to pay for Jason's movie career or anything else he wants to spend it on. He never made an agreement that all profits from the site would go back into the site, and I seriously doubt that it keeps that much money to keep that site up and running - at least it shouldn't if he's doing it correctly.
We've instituted several things in order to keep traffic going back to DM - and yet they decide that we need to give up nearly 2 years worth of work in order to go to their site in order to keep "DM all in one place" and that is horsenuts. I'll go with whatever the band decides, but as a programmer... I'd start making backup of things that are important NOW, since chances are, you'll lose a lot of it in the move, or will be asked to weed out what is unnecessary.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jul 16, 2007 18:34:48 GMT
The benefit from DM is in the new members. Unless we paid for our own domain name, our influx of new members would severely drop. Severely. It would be doable with other orgs working together on a new site, but not by ourselves.
Look at the turn over... in the almost 2 years I've been here, Corki, Northie, and Helike are the only people here before me. who haven't gone MIA, extended LOA, or LOLA on us. And that is out of a lot of people.. what was it, 70 or 80?
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Post by kristine on Jul 16, 2007 18:47:21 GMT
The influx comes from DM because we are associated from them. If we weren't, we'd still be found. A lot of the influx comes from people talking about the band to their other friends. Not because oh, hey that looks fun I saw it on DM. It comes from people with like interest talking to each other about it.
You think that if I put up a site on say... sixrooms.com with a message board called it old ways and got it searchable on google (which is easy to do) whenever anyone typed in Robert Jordan, Dragonmount, Aiel, Seanchan, Band of the Red Hand, Tor Publishing, Wheel of Time, Lan, Rand, etc., that I wouldn't get traffic? If I really wanted to I could send some money to google and get bumped up in their hierarchy for search hits.
Most people find DM do to a google search, most people find us because they struck up a friendship with a person.
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