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Post by manriva on Jun 1, 2008 3:12:50 GMT
There is NO community there... For what ever reason. I used to post in debate boards. That only lasted until I tripped over Tay and convinced her to try The Band. Debates there are simply an exercise in flaming. Post something then wait for some nit wit to contradict you with invalid facts, idiotic unsupported opinions etc. I tried The Aiel, didn't care for it. Tried the Wolfies, didnt care for it there either... Tried the Illuminators, worked for a bit but ran up against Mata and another clique there as well....
No surprise but I'm fairly irascible and abrasive and thats likely why I get ignored when I do post at DM (outside the Band) and on top of those two attractive qualities I can be rather obscure with my comments. I find approval here among our smaller group and even celebration to an extent.... It keeps me coming back.
As for DM being slow..... I have a Mac (as does Corki) and its a bloody fast one now. With gobs of memory and very very fast broadband access. Believe me Madame Northie... DM is at best inconsistent .. Slow at times rivaling molasses in winter. I also second Kast's emotion about their rules for sigs and avatars, that bugs me too. Even though I do understand some of their excuses. It's Jasons and Kaths dance and they can call the tune. But I don't have to choose to dance with ugly girls with bad personalities. Nor they with me.
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Post by Northie on Jun 1, 2008 14:26:05 GMT
no community at DM? come on...we are part of that community. no not all of us get on or like each other, exactly the same here except most of those who dont "fit in" leave pretty quickly instead of over at DM where there is far more variety - the ajahs last time i checked all have very close communities and the blues especially has a great leader. still, like with every other part of DM, some ajah leaders dont gel with the others so these people cause problems and the problems are well known throughout DM.
one thing which we have to consider if we are going to interact with other orgs is our image - which i can say quite safely is not good. bar the wolfies and the seanchen, i would say we have a pretty poor reputation for being arrogant, argumentative and always wanting our own way without considering anyone else's view point like a bull in a china shop. we then expect them to take part in activities - talk about fighting a loosing battle, what do you expect? if the WT came to us and started trying to promote activities etc would you take part?
admins...well theres a sticking point. before we roll them all up into a nice neat little package of evil monsters, lets remember that there are around 10 admins at DM, and we have problems with, what 2 of them? those admins being kath and jason. - jason first: he is the owner of DM, he is hardly ever on hence why kath manages everything. however everything still has to go through him, but as he has no idea whats going on and has adverts etc to keep the costs of the site down (bear in mind our membership is free and the site isnt so the adverts and money making make sense in alot of ways) as he has no idea whats going on, decision making is bound to be hard to get right especially when you have a group of admins, half of whom are redundant anyway and the other half just argue! personally, i would be in favour of jason handing control of what changes to make to the site which dont affect the money making side of things to kath as she has an idea of what goes on here and what the issues are etc. she is the one we all go to with problems - half of DM probably dont even know jason exists.
- kath: she isnt a demon. even corki admits that, and amazingly enough she is on our side and caught in the cross fire. she is an ADMIN. it is an admins business to know exactly what goes on on every board on the website for peoples safety and for the continuing health of the site. how would you feel if DM was shut down because it was being used by people to stalk young teenagers and the admins didnt spot it? they are there for a reason so no matter how hard you kick and scream they are always going to be there for good reasons none of us would question. and credit where credit is due, even on a site as small as this, being an admin is not easy. some of you may remember when a certain member of this site came within inches of destroying everything here. and that was my call - possibly the one thing i have done as an admin which was worthwhile but the grief it brought on in the following months was ridiculous, even though people were on my side. now imagine how it is for kath when most people arent on her side but she is trying to do the right thing. personally i think we should give her more credit and start seeing her as a friend instead of an enemy. the one who is causing problems is jason because of his ignorance, not kath.
if you work with people, they are far more likely to listen to you. if you come at kath and jason like you are an enemy with all guns blazing telling them about the faults of the site they are not going to listen. if you come at them calmly, with an obvious intention to help then they might listen and work to improve it. the likelihood is that kath is already well aware of all these problems and is battling with jason to fix them.
if you want more activity and DM, then the only thing we can do is move stuff from here over there. stop all the arrogance and the petty whining about admins as its totally ludicrous. if we can work with them to fix the problems with the server and try and sort out the jason issue then maybe we will get somewhere. we have been absent from DM for too long. like it or not, DM IS the band. its what brought us together. its what will keep us together.
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Post by Paladin Jon the Direwolf on Jun 1, 2008 14:48:37 GMT
I'm sorry, but no DM is NOT the Band. If that were true, these boards wouldn't exist and the people in the band would have no problem being on DM. These boards here are the Band. This here is our community. Yes, DM might have brought us all together for something, but you don't even have to go to DM to find the Band. You can Google it and find it before even finding DM. These boards here keep us together, it is clearly seen that there is a ton of activity here as compared to DM.
Everyone has made valid points about the slowness of DM and the trouble with Admin. Those are part of the reasons that I don't post there. I will admit I was big on Fiddlesticks when I first joined, but then through upgrades and changes I just didn't like the new DM with the problems and such I had getting on to the site. Then it feels like such a chore to be over there and the activity there is minimal so nothing really keeps me interested over there. As far as I'm concerned if there was no DM, no big loss to me, the band could still be here without DM.
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Post by taymist on Jun 2, 2008 0:00:28 GMT
I have to say that I don't agree about our reputation being that bad. Not in my experience. The Ogier and Aiel are also usually fairly ok about the Band and often discuss or consider joint activities with us. The reasons that hasn't come to much previously hasn't been anything to do with our reputation. The only people who seem to seriously have an issue on that score are the White Tower and even then only certain ones, usually those who are hardly involved in anything outside of the WT itself. Let's face it... a good number of our own members are also in the WT with several more having chosen to join us recently, so that doesn't really support this supposed bad image.
On the issue of the Admins, let's clarify. There are 4 Admins at DM. Jason as owner, Kath, Owen and Segurant. Matalina resigned and although Fader is still involved, I don't know as he's still officially an Admin (Corki do you know?). There are also 3 Assistant Admins but they don't make the final decisions and 1 of those is on the RP side anyway. For our purposes there are only two who matter and that's Jason and Kath.
No, Kath isn't a demon and being an admin on any site isn't easy ... but she's disliked by many and with good reason. Having seen how each of the Admins operates at DM, especially in recent months, I find I have less and less respect for her in that position. I agree that Jason's ignorance is a big part of the overall problem but it's far from the whole of it. It doesn't matter how supportive they may appear to be, their sole reason for being so is to get what they want, which is everyone and everything returned to DM. Yes, that's understandable but the point is, they don't care about the Band.... the Banders do. It's not their Org, it's ours. They aren't members, we are. So whilst returning to DM eventually may be inevitable ... you'll have to forgive me when I, along with many other members, hope it's not for a long time yet.
Arrogance has nothing to do with anything that anyone's said here. It's not arrogant to know who you like and who you enjoy spending time with... nor is it arrogant to know where you feel at home and to state a dislike of slow loading boards. It's not arrogant to trust your own Staff when you deal with them every day and they've proven themselves to you time and again over people you may not even know exist or whom you feel you can't respect. Those are all valid points that members have raised and they have the right to raise them without being insulted for it.
Edit: And just to be clear, having read Horn's post after mine, my comments on Kath as an Admin are a judgement based purely on her actions and behaviour online. I don't personally know her well, so I'm not judging her as a person in RL. She may well be wonderful offline etc. but unfortunately that doesn't translate to DM.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jun 2, 2008 3:07:35 GMT
Corki, to answer your original question...
How can activity at DM be encouraged?
Frankly, short of a MASSIVE overhaul of DM itself, only getting rid of these boards will ever really bring activity up there. I'm sorry if I'm blunt and to the point, but let's consider the options:
-You can always try to force the issue and require people post there so often, but all that would do would be to dwindle numbers as the lurkers then decide to stop lurking, and the half-lurkers dissappear even further.
-You can move lots of activities to DM... but then those activities would lose much of their activity. Every truly successful activity we've had at DM over the past year has had some roots at the proboards... the competitions are in the private boards, etc. Basically, moving an activity to DM is paramount to killing the activity.
-You can move the Regimental boards to DM.... but that would be a disaster. The private boards need to stay with the public ones, and you and I both know that trying to do ANYthing with admin powers to a board (ie change permissions, mods, etc) is like pulling teeth at DM... over the course of a couple months.... if we are lucky and the admins help us in a timely manner.
Bottom Line... there are real solutions to getting people at DM unless you are willing to lose some people. A good analogy is that if you have a spot of rotting flesh, you have to cut it out, and some of the non-rotting flesh with it, or you will never heal. (keep in mind I would be part of the rotting flesh in that analogy, so I am in no way demeaning anyone for anything here...)
Why do we not want to post at DM? The answer is simple... most of us don't like DM! To be honest, the ONLY reason I ever go to DM anymore is to... 1. Sign the Roll Call 2. Visit the Kin.
While visiting the Kin I rarely post much because the layout of the whole site is so unfriendly, and at the Band, I'll look around when I sign in, but I have to be in a spontaneous posting mood to do more than that.
Also, given that they were mentioned above..
I don't think the admins have anything to do with the majority of Banders who avoid DM. We never see them at the Band, so there is no reason for them to make a difference. (And just for the record,though it has little to do with my point, Kath happens to be a very wonderful person. She may be hard to deal with online (I am in no way disagreeing with that), but in RL she is enjoyable to be around.)
I've also noticed at the WT... small deals get blown way out of proportion when our two orgs or representatives from the orgs talk... that is why they don't like us much. (thinking especially of the warders.)
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Samurai P.I.
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I used to call her Cindy, she changed ehr name to Sin
Posts: 6,656
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Post by Samurai P.I. on Jun 2, 2008 8:30:27 GMT
I never really know what to say in these discussions. - While DM is slower than PB I have never consistently had more than about a 4 second load time on any page/click/link activity. Since I joined in Sept 07, I can only remember 1 downtime(1--2 weeks ago). I log in both there and here everyday(minus a day or two on occasional weekends) and have my joys and gripes with both boards.
- I have had limited dealings with Admins at DM, but the dealings I have had were handled well and quickly. There was a terse feeling to one incident....but the topic was touchy so I wrote it off. I think maybe looking at the Admins position and incorporating experiences in comparison should help. Corki has been very cordial about trying to get activity up....but I can tell in his posts that he is getting unbelievably frustrated. Mystie has shown how frustrated she gets trying to drum up participation in the Horsounder. I don't look badly at them for that....I understand the frustration. Sometimes garnering participation...especially outside of people's "Comfort Zone" is difficult, if not imposiible.
- As Corki mentioned...a major difference between DM and PB(To the best of my knowledge) is the fact that Jason has purchased a server and is running it himself, whereas PB is maintained by PB.
- In all I belong to seven orgs at DM. I did not find much "Community" at the Illuminators, and as I don't dabble as much as I would like I don't post there(Plus Matalina did irk me). I stopped posting in the Aiel due to Tessandra(Similar to Matalina). I never did post in the BT very much. The Seanchan I stopped posting in because while there was a ton to talk about(They are very active talking about games/movies/TV shows) I don't watch much TV, never make it to the Movies and won't be getting the next generation game systems soon, so I had little insight to offer conversations there. I still post in the Wolfkin, Ogier, Kin and Band orgs. Attendance at DM(and here to a degree) has been somewhat slowed in recent weeks. This is probably due to the time of year and a lot of school aged members. Plus I have seen many RL issues decimate various members.
That was a reaaallly long paragraph, but the point I am getting to is that the only negative image I have picked up on about the Band...is that it will swallow my soul and consume me until I am no longer active at DM. Seeing some of the comments here....I can see why people might think that...lol. But, if we are careful and continue to make small gradual changes, maybe it won't be the end of the world when we finally transfer everything back to DM.
- Back to the Admins a bit. Is it just the dislike for Kath and Jason that causes people to cringe at them having access to our boards? Now granted we all like the silly lug, but Corki has the same capabilities here, as do Tay and Brid. It doesn't bother me that they can peek in on our private boards. As long as Kath and Jason don't plan on randomly altering things(A-la the Dark One), then I don't see the issue here.
- I am a self-proclaimed, easy going fellow. As such, I don't take abrasiveness to heart, unless it is an all the time thing. The best bit of advice I can give is to take everything you read with a grain of salt. The smiley emoticons can only convey so much. If someone says something offensive, chances are they didn't mean it that way.
- As far as garnering participation at DM. Well as I said above....moving people outside of their "comfort zone" is difficult. I think adding reg boards at DM could help, but I would keep what is here as it is. I don't blame Tay for wanting to keep reviews here. The points are a lot of work to keep track of.
- Even trying to "Force" activity may just alienate most and eliminate a few. Until people can see that DM is....handled poorly, as opposed to being the evil conglomerate, convincing them to post there may prove fruitless.
- For everyone else....make mention that there is an upgrade...take time to ask if there is a blockage(ie. money) holding up the upgrade. And see if there are ways to make things easier instead of harder(Granted this takes both sides). So all in all, I think there should be more activity at DM.....everyone knows we have a lot of members(As so many of us are also in other orgs), but they also know that there is hardly any activity in our pages. Looking at that set of circumstances, I wouldn't be surprised if people felt we were stand-offish.
Hopefully an upgrade can or will occur sometime in the near future, it sounds like it is a big improvement. Until then, let's take 20-30 minutes every other day to show DM why we are the best org at DM.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jun 2, 2008 9:32:52 GMT
Jason has four servers so that they, and I quote, "will never go down." He has assured us that they will NEVER go down. *sigh* After the assurances, I saw them go down at least 3 times, 2 of them for more than just a day or two. And that wasn't even that long ago. Before those additional servers, "DM" and "unreliable" were 100% interchangeable as crashes were far more ordinary to see than the chances that I will find food when I browse through my kitchen.
This really has very little to do with why I currently don't like DM (though March 06's ONE MONTH LONG crash, then unannounced upgrade, leaving us down for a month is definately the specific moment at which my love for the actual DM boards turned sour), but I just think it is very ironic. One of his big arguments for getting us over there and shutting down the proboards is that it will be more reliable than the PB's.... I'll grow a third eye and a tail before that happens!
Pardon my pessimism... if you get burned too much, sometimes you don't heal all the way...
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Post by M-G Corki on Jun 2, 2008 10:07:52 GMT
On the issue of the Admins, let's clarify. There are 4 Admins at DM. Jason as owner, Kath, Owen and Segurant. Matalina resigned and although Fader is still involved, I don't know as he's still officially an Admin (Corki do you know?). There are also 3 Assistant Admins but they don't make the final decisions and 1 of those is on the RP side anyway. For our purposes there are only two who matter and that's Jason and Kath. Just to answer Tay's question, yes, Fader is still an admin. He is never around on the boards as he is behind the scenes checking everything. To be honest, Fader is the only admin I really have proper respect for. When we moved to the White version of DM (i.e. the last one), I was used as a guinea pig to see if everything worked BEFORE opening it up to the masses. I was more than happy to do so, as I was being helpful and could give Fader something to work with should there be problems. I think we worked together for a couple of months sorting out problems. I also respect Owen (WhiteWolf), but I do wonder at his lack of trying something new. That is my only reservation about Owen. Apart from that, he is usually around, and quite diplomatic. Most of you know my views on Kath. While she may be a wonderful offline, it doesn't translate online. I know that can be the case with me on occasions, but a lack of willingness to try anything (I know it has caused at least 1 resignation of a Staff member and annoyed several, me included) is frustrating. Oh, and as a result, I don't agree with the appointment of Segurant as an admin. It's keeping it in the tried and tested (and Family) when I believe there are better people about. All the joys of DM politics. And Horn, thanks for letting me know it is 4 serves. I only thought it was one, with a view for a second. The fact it is four, and they still have problems is disturbing. Ah well... And I will get back to the other points later tonight once I've done my jobs for the day.
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Post by fhornofvalere on Jun 2, 2008 13:44:50 GMT
hmmm... I believe it is 4 servers, but don't quote me on that. It could be 2... either way, he has more than one though.
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Post by Sora el Nyn on Jun 2, 2008 15:44:04 GMT
If he has more than one server and DM still goes down, there is definitely something wrong as you might have guessed. It could be on Jason's end, where he might not have set the servers up properly, but if he's running his own servers, I will assume that he has the computer smarts to do it properly.
I don't know the admins at all, except for Owen a little, whom I find fairly genial.
Sam, you don't get on with Tessandra? I always found her to be pleasant.
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Post by M-G Corki on Jun 2, 2008 16:09:46 GMT
Please note we are not here to pick and comment on staff.
*slaps wrist for doing so*
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Post by kristine on Jun 2, 2008 17:18:54 GMT
Just realize that anytime you try to force involvement with something... you're going to get people that rebel or resent it - usually a large part of them. People have reasons that they made the band their home, and specifically why they enjoy the site on the proboard location and are willing to come here to post.
I agree DM is slow and unreliable. I have a state of the art faster than most computer - I do this for a living I know what load speed versus computer speed is. Second off, I've seen several things done that seem bass ackwards to me. Upgrades with no notice, switching the main page for prolonged periods of time, restriction of personal identity and in a lot of ways telling people what they are allowed to say and that if they think different they are stupid and wrong.
We respect people here, we might not always agree and we might think people to be idiots, but we typically can leave that behind and after a disagreement move forward and keep with what we enjoy. To me it seems if there's a disagreement with individuals on DM they hunt you and keep grieving you until you leave or no longer feel involved. There is no DM community. They built it that way to be segmented off in different pockets - I am a Bander... I don't consider myself a DMer.
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Post by Blademaster Mystica on Jun 2, 2008 19:14:04 GMT
what all of them said *points up to Riva, Kris, Tay and company* still, I want to do my part other than b itch about it so I created a new thread on our boards on DM. Mynd is also doing his part with his survivor game and others are also doing theirs it seems. I realise that Quirky is in a tight spot here and though I fully agree with everything that's been said in opposition of posting on DM, I also know what it's like to be in that spot being an Ajah Head. Check it out if you want: a walk down memory lane
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Post by taymist on Jun 3, 2008 7:09:14 GMT
Yes *sighs* likewise as a Div Leader, not to mention simply being SS here. Having said that, the only genuinely active Bander (who doesn't use Fiddles or spam a ton) who has a post count higher than me at DM is Corki himself. So I don't feel a need to justify my activity and I feel perfectly justified in holding rather strong opinions about DM since I actually use it. My point being that I've heard DMers, both Staff and members, tell those who don't like it that they should try it and make something of it. Well I have... and my opinion remains unchanged on the move if not even more strongly opposed than before. It's not because DM is some "evil conglomerate" either, you'd have to be fairly blinkered to think that it was but a lot of things need to change there. The site not going down every few months would be a start.
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Samurai P.I.
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I used to call her Cindy, she changed ehr name to Sin
Posts: 6,656
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Post by Samurai P.I. on Jun 3, 2008 7:49:21 GMT
Well based on bits of info here.....has anyone asked about the upgrades...and maybe the possiblity of an improved PB to SMF converter? Sorry if I am poking at straws that have been cast. As I said above....forcing things, probably won't do any good. I know that frustration is probably high. You're best bet would be continued encouragement, and getting support from the people within each regiment who could do the most to help get things going. It is most likely going to take a bit of effort on the part of people (other than SS) to get things headed in that direction. Once the ball is rolling it is much easier to get people onboard. Problem is the ones who could probably get things moving the best, seem to be the most opposed.
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