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Post by Jeannaisais, Curator on Jul 18, 2007 21:37:49 GMT
we are going to be forced to accept downsizing every aspect of our site.. In my opinion Agreed. The question that we must answer is... is it worth it?
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Post by Paladin Bridmorgan UC on Jul 19, 2007 3:14:33 GMT
Ok, as always, I have not said my peice...well today I am! For one thing, I have not heard a valid reason for not allowing offsite boards..Jason's income is not a priority to me. I would like an explaination on how having offsite boards detracts from the income of DM. Seriously...no vague answers. Tell me how...I'm willing to listen if someone would just explain it to me. Banner ads...do you really think that I believe that is the whole of it? Seriously, if I am missing the answer, please inform me!
There are a couple of Orgs I belong to at DM, but first and foremost I am a Bander. The Band is the reason I joined DM, some of us have apparently forgotten that...
Anyways...I suppose I have gotten off topic..I love these boards, I'll admit it...the idea of losing them makes me incredibly sad. I don't post much at DM, its not as fun as it is here. But I will sit back and see how it goes for the guinea pigs and will go along with what the Band wants, but I won't like giving up these boards. As for being so happy that we can archive here...please!
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Post by twinflower on Jul 19, 2007 6:08:54 GMT
The actual number of boards, sub-boards that are seen on our Proboards page is 134, that doesn't include whatever private staff boards have. Of that 134, 82 are sub-boards, and out of the 134 boards, 68 are archives. So keeping this site as an active archive is very important. Most of those will have no need to be transferred then. Now I included the Infantry Library, the Cav's Horsecaverns and Archer Museum in the archival count. In truth I would rather have those on the active DM site for referance and they do display the best of our reg's!
What I have been told by Staff is that if we keep these boards, take off the DM name..then no we can not feed new members to the Band from the DM site. New members would have to be generated outside of DM. No links to this site could be posted, soliciting through pm's would be improper and if caught..the admin wouldn't be happy. Which is reasonable. If we split from DM then we are anti DM...it would seem to me that soliciting from DM then would be wrong anyway.
Another thing that did come up in the discussion at DM is that the sub domains are not a given yet. They are still considering them. The idea is to move as much of the Org's activity as can be onto the DM boards proper. Not to just switch the offsite to a subdomain. No not everything can and yes some things would have to be given up. From what I am hearing, Jason is willing to listen, and work together to come to place that is acceptable. It involves give and take on both sides.
With that thought, Corki, could we make a list of what is MOST important to the Band, that we are not willing to lose?
Things like the light RP that we do? The Game and game training, the Organization of our boards into each reg, perhaps with our avatars of rank, a way to still have them, perhaps smaller but in addition to our regular avatars....
I realize I am not the popular voice here, supporting the consolidation, but it is going to happen. I really don't want the Band to leave DM, and hope we can work towards that NOT happening.
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Post by Northie on Jul 19, 2007 15:14:45 GMT
if the band leaves DM then it will die. we will get no new members and the old ones will get bored and leave. there is a reason why corki and i are the only two "originals" left and thats with the link to DM. leaving DM is a ridiculous notion.
but come on....if the admins are nice and just replicate the site as a subdomain of DM, then the set up of the boards is the same, is it really that big a deal? the only reason it is a big deal is because the admins didn;t discuss it before making the decision.
also consider the opinion of alot fo people that the admins are incapable and dont get alot done. the premininary deadline is 5 months away. we've already been told that its impossible for it to be ready by then. this has been tlaked about for years and nothing has been done. i really wouldnt be suprised if it just goes away again as realistically we are tlaking about somethign which might happen in a years time and a year is a LONG time on DM.
we also know the the admins have admitted that the band is a unique case, so i doubt any overall proposal applies to us directly.
either way just moving to a subdomain is not cause to leave DM. there are only 4 admins which will be streched over possibly a hundred boards. do you honestly think they will be able to keep up with all of those? i dont. that makes the admins involvement in our new boards negligable.
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Post by kristine on Jul 19, 2007 15:28:12 GMT
if the band leaves DM then it will die. we will get no new members and the old ones will get bored and leave. there is a reason why corki and i are the only two "originals" left and thats with the link to DM. leaving DM is a ridiculous notion. but come on....if the admins are nice and just replicate the site as a subdomain of DM, then the set up of the boards is the same, is it really that big a deal? the only reason it is a big deal is because the admins didn;t discuss it before making the decision. also consider the opinion of alot fo people that the admins are incapable and dont get alot done. the premininary deadline is 5 months away. we've already been told that its impossible for it to be ready by then. this has been tlaked about for years and nothing has been done. i really wouldnt be suprised if it just goes away again as realistically we are tlaking about somethign which might happen in a years time and a year is a LONG time on DM. we also know the the admins have admitted that the band is a unique case, so i doubt any overall proposal applies to us directly. either way just moving to a subdomain is not cause to leave DM. there are only 4 admins which will be streched over possibly a hundred boards. do you honestly think they will be able to keep up with all of those? i dont. that makes the admins involvement in our new boards negligable. Sweetheart, you don't know what you are talking about. They aren't suggesting renaming this site as a dm board, they can't, PROBOARD owns this site. They are wanting to create a whole new site, new database and NONE of this will transfer automatically. We will have to copy and paste every post that we want to see over on the "New Band Site". They aren't replicating a site, they are doing a full out rebuild from SCRATCH. I'm telling you right now, this site will survive without DM if it came to that. I know we have several people here with extensive resources and desire to see that happen. If it came down to it I could put up a new "main site" that would feed off to the band or any other area that was desired. No, I wouldn't posture it to be DM, and no I wouldn't try to profit from it. What I would do is get it in the search engines, get it viewed, make it interesting and make it fun. The reason people go to DM now initially is because they want information on the Wheel of Time. Then they look around. Simple fact. I ran a site seperate from DM for 5 years, one of the top RP sites for the wheel of time community. The reason I let it drop wasn't lack of interest or people, it was I got married and didn't have the time to commit to keeping it up and running. I turned it over to others, and it fell apart because they didn't know how much time it would take to keep up and going. I was NEVER affiliated with DM, and I got along just fine.
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Post by M-G Corki on Jul 19, 2007 16:52:38 GMT
Below is Jason's reply to my first email. I'm going to make a reply up now. My bits of the email are in the block quotes. Thanks for the email. I really appreciate you coming to me. See my replies below. Firstly, as I have already stated, I want the Band of the Red Hand ORG to remain part of DM. This email will try to explain my resentment as it is at the moment about moving offboard sites back to DM. Before we begin, I need to kindly ask that you put all resentment aside. If you're going to harbor any resentment, then this process is not going to work. Please have an open mind, as will I. My first concern was the transfer of data from one site to another. After the shambles of the move to the new boards, I was not prepared to let anyone touch what we have at our proboards offboard site and attempt moving it to Simple Machines. I didn't have much confidence in such a move, nor did many of my ORG members. But this is not an important issue anymore, since I have had a techie Bander have a look at the possibility of moving from proboards to Simple Machines, and it isn't possible. proboards use something similar to phpBB, but it's so twisted and inverted, it would be a nightmare to transfer everything across. So, it looks like it will have to be a fresh start, unless there is some way of transfering our date safely that I am unaware of. SMF supports a large number of converters from other popular forum systems. Unfortunately it does not look like Pro Boards is one of them. Here's the list of converters: www.simplemachines.org/download/?convertersMy next concern is the control of the sub domains that are being offered. I have asked, but didn't get a reply to my answer. So, who actually will have admin and moderator powers of these sub domains? Personally speaking, I would rather have complete power of the sub domain, just like I do at proboards, where I am the admin. I can pick my team of Staff and give them the appropriate power. If someone makes a request (i.e. new board), I can do it as soon as I am asked about it. Everything is done quickly, and all directed at me. At the moment, I haven't a clue who will have what power. While I do have issues with some of the current DM admins, I am skeptical about asking them for things like new boards when in the past I have been able to do it when asked, and it's done immediately. I will have more on this issue depending on what your reply is. Bottom line: you will have the tools you need to run your org. If we go with a sub-domain, which I think would be fine, then you would have access to be an admin on your forums. You can have the ability to setup moderators, create forums, etc. You will not be allowed to customize the design or layout of the forums though. Maybe customize the graphics a bit... but not change the overall look and feel. I want it all to look like DM. The DM admins will of course have full access to everything as I will have nothing "hidden" on my sever. But as long as you run a clean shop, then there will be no need for anybody but you to control the settings. Now, my next concern is probably the largest and why I have such a resentment againts moving. And that was the edict/command for having no offboard sites and how it was given. Yes, I know you run DM, but a lot of people's backs have been put up by the "my way or the high way" attitude that there has been involving the whole issue. I'm not a fan of this way of working, and I think I have shown that. And nor do I enjoy working this way. As I explained on the GD board the other day, this process evolved in a convoluted way. It was not intended to. I know hindsight is great in this (probably better for me as I was on holiday when this whole issue started), but I still think that discussing the idea before implenting it (i.e. discussing to what extent there were offboard sites, what we would be offered by moving back to DM etc etc) would have been a much better way, and it would have caused less of this tension. It is us ORG and Div Leaders, as well as the ordinary members of DM, who run and maintain what is done on DM, as well as being the source of activity at DM on a daily basis. It would have been much nicer to get our views on the issue first before deciding what to do. I know I would have been a lot more willing to co-operate than I am at the moment if this course of action had been taken. I hear you loud and clear. But, if I may, what I don't think you are recalling properly is that these offsite boards were _always_ intended to be temporary. I was under the impression that I had made it crystal clear that I was only giving off site boards a "blessing" because of the technical issues at the time. This return home should not be a surprise to anybody. Also, I do listen to the members of DM. I listen, I consider, and I act. If I didn't care about any of this we'd still be on some ultra crappy forums with little to no standards. I am trying to gather everyone back together, put everything under a common banner. And I'm trying to do that in such a way that allows for you to have the control over your org. Another concern of my mine is possible downtime of DM. I'm guessing that sub domains would go down as well should the main DM themselves crash. In the past, communication of the server going down haven't been great. The question about using offboards should this happen was raised, but Kath quashed the idea and said it wasn't going to happen. Knowing DM's history (even with a new server), this isn't something that thrills me. We've never had any unknown downtime from proboards. The only time it did happen was when they upgraded their servers, but they gave us a week's warning of their action, and everything ran smoothly. So, what is your view on offboard sites being used should the DM server go down (as it is bound to at some stage), since I am going to hold onto the Band's proboards site, as we can still use them for archive purposes? DM is rock solid. We have had two downtimes longer than 24 hours in the last 2 years. One was when we moved the old DM server from a facility in a far away state to come to my home town. I also removed the horrible Windows OS that was on it, upgraded RAM, and put Linux on there. That was the beginning of DM 7, and is the reason I allowed for the temp boards to become officially supported. ** Since Day 1 that we were back up with the phpBB forums I have asked all orgs and groups to come back to DM and have their activity here. 2 years later after that the hard drive on the old DM server failed (after running nearly 24/7 for 5 straight years!) At the time I was doing weekly backups. We recovered within HOURS this time, but the data was about a week old. After that incident, I purchased a brand new server which as of this writing would still be considered cutting edge. I have a daily back-up system, and battery backups in place. I also have reduntant hard drives in case one goes bad. ADDITIONALLY, I intend to purchase a second server within the next year so we have TWO servers sharing the load. Not that we need it.... our current server is extremely powerful and is hardly breaking a sweat even at our busiest times. The server is tied directly into an ultra fast fiber optic network. That network has not once (knock on wood) gone offline in more than 2 years of me using it. I work for Cisco Systems. I do this for a living. This server is solid, reliable, secure, fast, and I have plans to improve it even further. Frankly, the reputation DM has had over the years as being unstable I think is undeserved. Yes, we have gone down. But when you stop to consider what we had to work with at the time, and if you truly focus on the facts and not the emotional frustrations of it being down, you'll see that DM has had an excellent run in the past 3-5 years. So, in short: no, I don't think we'll have a lot of issues. Keeping the pro-boards as a backup is fine. But as I've been saying, in the near future, all orgs at DM need to live on DM. Now, in the recent discussion on the General Boards at DM, I have seen things that sound promising, and make me want to co-operate a bit more than I am currently doing so. The fact that some ORGs are willing to be guinea pigs in the whole issue sounds a good halfway house. I just wish this had been suggested first before all the heated debates got started as a result of the firm decision you made. I am interested to see how this shapes out. Great! I'm glad you're being open to it. 1. I've heard DM being called a "business". This is news to me. To what extent is DM a business? Dragonmount.com has been a registered business in the US since 1999. It is perfectly legal and legit. I did this because DM is a big financial burden and I do not want to have it inter-mix with my family's personal finances. By setting it up as a business I am able to have a dedicated bank account and can do things like pay bills, buy hardware and services, invest in events, contests, and marketing. In the first 4-5 years of being in existence DM lost a ton of money. Thousands of dollars a year. It was ugly. In the recent years (since I took more direct control over the DM server and we launched DM 7.0), DM has made enough money to pay off a large amount of debt, pay for server and network upgrades and try to setup a cushion for those unforseen issues (such as hard drive failures). I also use DM to give back to charities, most recently Robert Jordan's Amyloidosis research charity through the Mayo clinic. 2. Should the sub domains not be successful, what would the state of play be then? In order for any of this to be successful you and I and the admins are going to need to sit down and set goals and milestones. We need a plan. We need to discuss your forums, your blogs, your mailing lists, your rankings.... everything. We will discuss how to do each of those things. We will work together on figuring out a plan "b" if things don't work. Sound good? As I've said, I want to work and co-operate, but the way things have been handled, that is the fundamental cause of my resentment. I applaud your passion and commitment to the Band and to DM. Personally, it actually means a great deal to me. I challenge you to move beyond your resentment and help me help you make the Band a fantastic org that lives at Dragonmount.com Thanks again for the email Jason
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Post by deathdealer on Jul 19, 2007 17:11:31 GMT
I have a lunch break today!! Everybody gasp in surprise!
It took me three days of a peak here and there to read all of this, so I’m responding!
My views go with John Candy’s, “Like a twig on the back of a mighty river.” I’m going with the flow. Whatever happens happens.
Now a comment/question/concern or two of mine: (Bear in mind, when it comes to servers, boards, the Wide World of Web and such, the only thing separating me from a box of rocks is opposable thumbs)
If/when we go to sub boards at DM. Somebody said that we couldn’t easily move info and posts from this board to the new DM boards. Will it prove to be just as difficult to transfer information back to these boards so that we can use this as an active archive?
One thing to think of is that it may be easier to transfer Hornsounder from one board to another on the same server. We write it in the subboards, much like we do on the offsites, then we transfer it to public boards. It may be easier to do seeing as it is all the same server. Maybe not. Again, see box of rocks comparison above.
Oh, and Corki, (in his best Tom Cruise impersonation) “Help me help you! HELP me HELP you!!”
Sorry, Jason’s last line there inspired that. Was it me or did he sound like a salesman or politician there?
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Post by manriva on Jul 19, 2007 17:13:18 GMT
Very encouraging.. enlightening too.
It's mostly what he has said to Tay and Horn, though I gather.
I know these questions have been asked... Thinking out loud here.
1. How does this affect our Org Game, Jousts, Ceremonies, Story Threads.. Our "light RP? 2.The double avatars (ranks and personal ones) ... 3. Private Regimental Boards ... not asking about the websites... yet.
I know these are small potatoes, but its the stuff that comes to me off hand.. I'm sure others more thoughtful than myself will have better more useful concerns.
Foots .. I don't think the "reserve dinero" is goin to his movie ..... I think its for Governor.
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Post by M-G Corki on Jul 19, 2007 17:25:57 GMT
I know we can pay for proboards, though I don't know if that gives us anything that changes the format of the boards to something more friendly or just advert free. I'll investigate. To answer Manny's questions... 1. How does this affect our Org Game, Jousts, Ceremonies, Story Threads.. Our "light RP? I believe this has been covered with what Owen/WhiteWolf and Kath said - we can keep them. But if you want me to check with Jason, I can do so. 2.The double avatars (ranks and personal ones) ... I'm going to raise that issue in my next email 3. Private Regimental Boards ... not asking about the websites... yet. You want to know if passwords can be put in place? Or am I missing the point? What are your concerns here? Let me know and I will bug Jason with them. If anyone else has questions for Jason regarding moving, please place them here so I can copy and paste them into my email.
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Post by kristine on Jul 19, 2007 17:27:10 GMT
also ask for specifics as to who would have access to the boards. See if it is the full admin group or just Jason. Something of that nature can be restricted to site owners or an admin group.
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Post by Froix on Jul 19, 2007 18:23:22 GMT
It seems to me all notable questions and concerns have been answered. All this aggravation just from one person's lack of people skills!
I'm assuming from Jason allowing us to keep our light RP activities here that we get to keep our accounts and that new recruits get to register and that he's ok with it.
Heck! We can start moving now and see what kind of problems we'll encounter early.
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Post by M-G Corki on Jul 19, 2007 18:23:56 GMT
Just to give you guys a head's up... Jason emailed me earlier and said he would be joining the boards to run a question and answer session with us. Now play nicely...or else!
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Post by amavia on Jul 19, 2007 18:37:03 GMT
I noticed yes, wil you do that in a new thread? as not to make this one a mile long ;D
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Post by manriva on Jul 19, 2007 18:37:18 GMT
I promise boss ;D ... though i do tend to be a mirror.. Jason has always seemed reasonable and erudite to me..
What I meant about the Regimental Boards was .. would we have them at all, and password protected goes without saying... Otherwise they aren't really a private reg board are they .. I think this has actually been answered before as well, if I remember. Horn or Taymist, I think gave me the word on that.
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Post by M-G Corki on Jul 19, 2007 18:40:01 GMT
Amavia - it will be a new thread. Though I suspect Jason will post in this thread as well.
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